What's this about a plagiarized map in Conan: City of Shadizar?

[DragonSword]

From what I can gather on the Mongoose Message Boards and elsewhere, it definitely wasn't an editing mistake (there was no placeholder that was forgotten to be replaced with the image). The first Mongoose heard about the problem was when someone reported it on their message boards.

I say it wasn't an editing mistake, but I believe Cities of Canals are rare, especially in DESERT REGIONS, such as the City of Shadizar. The image was from WOTC's free maps section on their website, but the image had been manipulated by the "artist" so that the normal colouring was sand-coloured rather than grass/greenery, however the canals on the map were left in place (I would've thought it would've been more clever to make the canals lok dried-out).

Anyway, Mongoose haven't commented, except to say that "Heads will roll.." regarding the artist, and that a new map will be made and distributed. It would've been easy to not recognise that the map wasn't original (there are soo many maps around), but the fact that it depicted something nothing like the original Conan city of Shadizar, and had a lot of water, when the author hadn't depicted canals (which are a pretty major feature of the map), can only be shody editing.

A Mongoose proofreader (I can't remember who off my head), said that he never saw the map, but only the text, which suggests that it might have been added late (Another Conan city set, Messantia, has been delayed because the main map hasn't arrived yet). That means it could have been a last resort from the artist trying to reach the deadline. No one has named and shamed them yet.

That's what I've gathered anyway. I guess it's too soon to comment on what actually happened, but Mongoose are usually good at making up for their mistakes (which seem to number a fair few). As for WOTC, no word yet.

 

[Man-thing]

But wouldn't you prefer Mongoose to get it right the first time, rather than continually have to make amends?

Certainly. Of course I'd have preferred to not by the PHB, DMG, MM, XPH a second time as well. I guess technically I can by the PHB a third time now for the errata correction one.

I think its great that Mongoose has put something in place to make amends. Everyone makes mistakes.

 

[Garnfellow]

Certainly. Of course I'd have preferred to not by the PHB, DMG, MM, XPH a second time as well. I guess technically I can by the PHB a third time now for the errata correction one.

I think its great that Mongoose has put something in place to make amends. Everyone makes mistakes.

Well, I'm not sure that Wizards is such a great example to hold up in contrast to Mongoose. WotC is a much, much larger company and has had its own issues with quality control -- a serious problem that they have acknowledged and taken steps to correct. If the difference between Complete Adventurer and Complete Divine is any indication, WotC has successfully made the needed changes.

A company like Malhavoc or Green Ronin would probably be a better choice to hold Mongoose up against. They are similar in size to Mongoose, so my expectations are similar. Neither Green Ronin nor Malhavoc is perfect 100% of the time, but I don't think anyone here is holding up perfection as the standard. I’m certainly not.

For example, in the otherwise wonderful Black Company Campaign Setting there are several cases of the dreaded "see page @@" typo. But because the typos are infrequent, because the rest of the book is so good, and because GR has established my trust with its consistently high quality, I'm not inclined to get wound up about those particular typos. It happens.

Mongoose, on the other hand, has a long and troubled history with quality control. Oh, there have been many heartfelt mea culpas, much blame cast upon freelancers and editors, and plenty of promises to reform, but also just as many lapses back into old habits. Unfortunately, based on this history, I am just not as trusting as many folks here.

I think it’s great that Mongoose has promised to fix this problem, just like they fixed the problem with the original Conan book. But personally, I thought the problems with the original book were completely unacceptable. As I said above, I am floored by how nice and understanding so many of Mongoose’s customers are. You all are probably much better people than I am, and certainly much better customers than Mongoose deserves.

 

[Belen]

I think it’s great that Mongoose has promised to fix this problem, just like they fixed the problem with the original Conan book. But personally, I thought the problems with the original book were completely unacceptable. As I said above, I am floored by how nice and understanding so many of Mongoose’s customers are. You all are probably much better people than I am, and certainly much better customers than Mongoose deserves.

I would have to agree with this one. Mongoose has been pretty consistent with the lack of decent editing. It's fine and dandy to apologize, but I got tired of it and have not bought a Mongoose book since 3.5 arrived.

 

[Crothian]

I would have to agree with this one. Mongoose has been pretty consistent with the lack of decent editing. It's fine and dandy to apologize, but I got tired of it and have not bought a Mongoose book since 3.5 arrived.

you do know that they only really cracked down on that last year and now there new books are a lot better. So you have obviously not bought the new stuff and wouldn't know this.

 

[Aristotle]

Wasn't there just a similar case to this a few weeks ago surrounding artwork for a D20 Future setting? Odd that we hear of another case so soon. I guess unscroupulous freelancers (be they artists or whatever) aren't as uncommon as we would like to think they are.

I can draw, and I like to... but I'm not good enough to do it professionally (yet), so I dont. I can't imagine stealing someone else's work and putting my name on it. I don't think I'd be able to live with myself, even if I did get away with it.

 

[Carnifex]

Garnfellow - I'm sure you'll be pleased to know that the map issue in Shadizar really is a case of the artist conning us (us being the Mongoose editorial team) and not, as you alledge, what would be a supreme case of dishonesty were we to attempt to blame a simple editorial mistake on an artist in such a way that would so obviously damage or even destroy their future career in doing such artwork. We are hardly in the practice of using Map-A-Week entries as placeholders in our books.

The artist in question appears to have plagiarised the map owned by Wizards of the Coast by almost exactly copying it, with various changes (different coloured area surrounding the city, some buildings different, but exact same layout). I believe (not being the editor in question), however, that Shadizar has been previously unmapped so there was nothing existing to work from in that respect. As such, the artist - who had previously done nothing to make us doubt our trust in them - was allowed to get on with doing the map by themselves. Since, as I mentioned before, there have been no existing maps of Shadizar, it was always going to have a fair amount of 'artists impression' to it anyway, and as far as I know the artist was supplied with the relevant text from which to create the city.

On the matter of the incongruity of the map as a city of canals for a representation of Shadizar - to be honest, if the map remained the same and was not plagiarised, I doubt there would be any outcry about it. After all, most cities of the past have rivers running through them to simply provide for the needs of the populace, and it's not a stretch of the imagination for a decadent place like Shadizar to have canals created by the rich and wealthy for their pleasure.

On the matter of a past history for this kind of thing - well, the editor responsible for the first version of Conan is no longer with the company, and the editing and QC process has, as far as I know, drastically improved. I only joined the company some six months ago, but I would hope that my own editorial input is further aiding in this.

When it comes to comparing Mongoose to other companies, well, Mongoose is larger than most othen d20 companies by quite a significant margin (most consisting of 4 or 5 full-timers at most) and the volume of product we put out is also significantly higher.

BelenUmeria - since you haven't bought any Mongoose products since 3.5, how can you be sure we've been consistent in the lack of decent editing since then

 

[Man-thing]

There indeed was. I think it was the Dawning Star campaign by Blue Devil Games that has been delayed by one artist using another's work. The real artist, i think, so some of the sample work and contacted Blue Devil.

 

[Garnfellow]

Garnfellow - I'm sure you'll be pleased to know that the map issue in Shadizar really is a case of the artist conning us (us being the Mongoose editorial team) and not, as you alledge, what would be a supreme case of dishonesty were we to attempt to blame a simple editorial mistake on an artist in such a way that would so obviously damage or even destroy their future career in doing such artwork. We are hardly in the practice of using Map-A-Week entries as placeholders in our books.

Actually, Carnifex, "pleased" is probably the farthest thing from my mind. If your charge is true, then Mongoose has my deepest sympathies. Intentional plagiarism is nasty and difficult to detect, as the New York Times can attest.

On the matter of a past history for this kind of thing - well, the editor responsible for the first version of Conan is no longer with the company, and the editing and QC process has, as far as I know, drastically improved. I only joined the company some six months ago, but I would hope that my own editorial input is further aiding in this.

Well, Mongoose's history of editing problems was certainly not limited to that one Conan book alone. That book only represented the low-water mark.

On the other hand, several highly-respected posters in this thread have apparently noticed and appreciated the improved editing efforts over the last year. If true, then good for Mongoose.

So have I been led astray by false reports of typos on the back of Conan: City of Shadizar?

 

[Carnifex]

Well, Mongoose's history of editing problems was certainly not limited to that one Conan book alone. That book only represented the low-water mark.

Perhaps, but given the sheer size of Mongoose's library of products, which is considerably larger than most other d20 companies (perhaps most other rpg companies?), it's interesting to see people pick up on the examples of problematic editing yet ignore the vast quantity of useful material which people have not only found problem-free but also of high enough quality to keep on coming back and buying more. Again, I'll point out that the editing team is rather different in both personnel make-up and the QC process to what it was like back then.

So have I been led astray by false reports of typos on the back of Conan: City of Shadizar?

I quite honestly have no idea, as I do not have a copy of Shadizar handy (it's gone 9 30pm here in the UK, in case you're wondering why I'm not at work! ).