What's this so-called MMO influence????

[Gundark]

As far as the tiefling/draenie issue goes, let me help you understand the complaint.

In previous editions of D&D, tieflings did not have a uniform appearance. Some had horns, some had tails, some were mostly human-looking.

In D&D 4e, tieflings have been given a uniform appearance, with ram-like horns and long tails.


Now this is an example of the draenie from World of Warcraft:

http://www.wowwiki.com/images/d/d1/Draenie_copy.jpg

Granted, this fine specimen doesn't have a long tail, but the shape of the horns is very similar to that of the new tiefling.

I agree that there is a surface resemblance. They look alike. There is some fluff elements that are similiar. That's were it ends though. If fact if you want to look at the fluff elements D&d came first with demonic tainted humanoids.

The whole mmorg thing bugs me as its more mmorgs copying D&D and people (a lot of whom have never played a mmorg) claiming it's otherwise.

 

[Gundark]

The rogue as the best melee damage dealer in the game.

I played a Wow rogue to level 70. beleive me I WISH that was the case

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I think the whole negative response to the MMORPG comes from the statement: "D&D is becoming an MMORPG and the DM has no influence over his game"

Looking to other genres for benefical influence is a good thing. Look at blizzard: they take inspiration from everywhere: warhammer 40k, D&D etc...

But the role distributon... of course there are 4 roles... they have alwayes been there... and AFAIK in most MMORPG class description there are no direkt statements: the fighter is a tank or the rogue is a DPS... these are terms which are used by the players.

So D&D seems to actually be the first rulebook to explicitely state it. (And why not? It helps beginners to chose a class and designers to make a streamlined concept.)

 

[Jack99]

I played a Wow rogue to level 70. beleive me I WISH that was the case

You just needed better gear (endgame rogue here as well)

 

[Kesh]

Isn't it obvious that the original post is trolling? Drakshasak hasn't replied once and most people who start threads initially camp them for a while to see if immediate discussion ensues.

Speak for yourself. Not everyone can hang around waiting to see responses to their threads. Given that this is not a real-time medium, I typically start a thread and do not check it for hours, if not a day or two.

People are a little too hasty to cry "troll" whenever a new person posts something that's been hashed out here before. I think we're all getting a bit calloused by previous arguments, and it's become a problem, as mods have pointed out in this thread.

 

[drakshasak]

Hey again. Sorry for not answering before the troll-timeline

Well first off the moderator.

the reason i started this thread was because all i saw of the mmo discussion were scattered about in lots of other threads.

About this being the first post. I am an avid reader of forums but i only write threads or replies if i feel I have a point-of-view that I dont see other people who have and i really feel its worth typing. hence i dont write alot of posts.

Back to the topic.

The general theme from alot of the posts is that some dont like the labels. Cause most of what i have seen have allways been there. the earliere editions were balanced around a party of 4 consisting of a cleric, a fighter, a wizard and a rogue. I am actually pretty sure it says so almost directly in both 3.5 and in 3.0. So the only new in 4th edition is the fact they have written it in the book to make it easier to assess new material. The same with the monsters. there have allways been monsters designed to be many or to be one. the extrmes being goblin and tarrasque.

about the items. as far as i know the only restriction i have seen is the ring thing. that can be houseruled in like 3 seconds. the rest is the same. the difference is the label. it used to be measured in Gp untill the magic item compendium and they have kept the system cause even though its mostly the same guidelines as it has allways been they have given them simpler labels to make it alot easier.

I simply dont see how the new magic system is anything liek an MMO. ill have to pass on that argument for now.


So to sum it up. as i see it the so called issue with the MMO influence is the fact the use almost the same labels for stuff that has been in dnd for years.

 

[nutluck]

Well for me and mine. Our group everything thinks 4e from what has been shown to us so far has more of a video game feel to it. I know we have discussed it before, i recently asked them at our last game why. Keep in mind the whole group has played or currently plays one of the MMORPG's out there. There was no one or two things they could point to and said thats why. It was more of a general feel and it wasn't so much that 4e feels exactly like a video game but that it feels MORE like a video game than 3e or previous versions of DnD does. That there is enough there that one of the first things they think of about some of the stuff said is it reminded them of this or that video game.

Anyways just trying to stay on topic of what the OP asked. Not going to debate other stuff said in the thread and really it would be pointless. Since this is just a matter of opinion and there is no right or wrong answer nor can one really change another persons mind. I mean we all have different tastes, likes and dislikes and different threasholds to reach those levels.

 

[Rel]

Isn't it obvious that the original post is trolling? Drakshasak hasn't replied once and most people who start threads initially camp them for a while to see if immediate discussion ensues.

Wow. THREE Moderators posted, one of them very specifically telling folks not to lob accusations of trolling. And yet you ignored all of that. See you in three days.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I have read alot of people talking about some sort of MMO influence. And it is allways talked about like a negative thing. I have been playing WoW since launch and i just dont see this MMO influence. it could be another MMO but to me it just seems like a way to blame changes people dont like on something other than different opinions.

But please fill me in on what people think is this MMO influence. I really wanna know what its suppose to be.

A lot of "videogame influence" arguments can be boiled down to a handful of more specific objections about the direction of the game. Most of these are debatable as to whether or not they are really a bad thing, but the argument has always been a stylistic one.

• Ease of Play Trumps Creative Detail. Videogames don't waste a lot of space on things that aren't directly play-able. Mario doesn't need much of a reason for saving the Princess. He does and it's fun. In WoW, the inability of characters to truly change the world and the static NPCs make it a better environment to game in (more stability), but kind of suck the 'living, breathing world' detail from it. It doesn't matter if it makes sense that Murlocks carry around magic rings that they don't use, but that the player can.
• Limits on DM Power. Videogames are constrained to a narrow set of options. Often, there are LOTS of them in MMO's, but they're still constrained. Any D&D advice that tells the DM to limit, to control, and to adhere to a baseline, can be seen as constraining to a videogame-style degree. The issue of balance crops up a lot with this, that many D&D players believe that you can have plenty of fun with highly unbalanced parties because the DM can compensate for this. In a videogame this isn't true, so you need to balance things, but the tabletop is a more organic experience.
• Pay To Play. While D&D has always had a sort of 'monthly fee' in the form of the newest splatbook, it was always optional. Making everything core and including an online portion (and all the mess that that entails) means that people feel obligated to pay for something every month that they may or may not want. The 'collectors mindset' that D&D has cultivated works to make people frustrated that they won't be able to complete their collection without paying by the month, and using electronic devices, which definitely have issues of permanence and portability to sort out, still.

Those are the three big points I keep seeing in this debate, at least when it's not just someone complaining for the sake of complaining. The things like the Roles might be an "Ease of Play Trumps Creative Detail" issue, but the fact that the roles have always existed in D&D, even if they weren't called out specifically, means that the complaint rings a little hollow as being MMO derived.

 

[Remathilis]

I have to say that this relatively short thread is so rife with examples of exactly how NOT to post at ENWorld that I'm thinking of bookmarking it and using it as an example to point people to in the future.

ooh! Can I add one?

D&D 4e, like any MMO, is badwrongfun and those who play either of them need their toenails plucked off with pliers!

That was fun!