What's Up With The Monk?

[Zog]

Just a note as for the posted monk -

His BAB is actually 7/4 - using the improved iterative attacks monks get. Or 5/5/2 with flurry.

If he used weapon finesse instead of focus, it would increase by another 1 - focus gives his a +1, dex 16 = +3 vs str 13 = +1.


For equipment did you really spend all of the cash? I don't recall prices,but you seem a bit light - make it bracers of AC 1, drop a potion or two, and add Item of +2 dex. Which gives him the same AC, but another +1 to hit with finesse. (I don't recall the price of AC +2 bracers - 4k is the cost for gloves of dex +2, potion of endurance is 500 I think...) If there is money left over, try something like a potion of darkvision - make the party drop/loose light sources. Or a ring of jumping if there is rough terrain or any small crevasses that could be avoided to aid in those hit and run tactics.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I find it interesting that you should mention this, since it's exactly one of my reasons for taking Escape Artist. There are a LOT of things that can try to swallow you, or constrict you, both of which are generally perceived as bad by the target.

I find it interesting you keep mentioning escape artist. It isn't useful at all against grappling attacks unless you spend a lot of points on it. It is a great skill for a rogue, pretty iffy for a monk, IMO. If monks were indeed superior unarmed and grappling combatants it seems like you would be paying a premium for redundant abilities.

And again, you're spending a feat or two with your fighter or barbarian to go outside his area of expertise to TRY and catch up with the monk. You won't be grappling anything that's immune to subdual, that's for sure.

Of course not. I plan on using my sword. The unarmed feats are in case...gremlins invade the princess' debutante ball or somesuch. Try and catch up? I think I have succeeded.

I really wish you'd stop making these unfair comparisons where one characters gets a buff spell, potion or item the other one doesn't. It doesn't make sense. You have to compare on even grounds. Would I compare a 32-point buy monk to your 25-point buy fighter? No. So don't do it with magic either.

Unfair? Nonsense.

Str is the usual primary stat for fighters and barbarians. It is perfectly fair to assume they put great effort into pumping it up. It would be silly for you to assume the monk's Str increases much over the same period; your monk is spending cash on Wis and Dex and probably Con. Granted, the monk's Str could be higher, but on the balance a 22 Str for a 12thish level fighter is conservative. I could very easily justify a higher value washing away the effect of whatever Str increase you think the monk should have had, making your complaint moot.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I still suspect they'd get rolled fast because 1) the Monks wouldnt have the flexibility the party has, 2) Monks suck. ;-)

Monks at 7th level are playable as PCs because of the synergy of Stun with sneak attacks, and other good teamwork tactics. Alone he is pretty hopeless.

Hmm...maybe you should add a handful of 3rd level rogues, monks, and rogue/monks to help this NPC out?

 

[LokiDR]

Just a note as for the posted monk -

His BAB is actually 7/4 - using the improved iterative attacks monks get. Or 5/5/2 with flurry.

If he used weapon finesse instead of focus, it would increase by another 1 - focus gives his a +1, dex 16 = +3 vs str 13 = +1.


For equipment did you really spend all of the cash? I don't recall prices,but you seem a bit light - make it bracers of AC 1, drop a potion or two, and add Item of +2 dex. Which gives him the same AC, but another +1 to hit with finesse. (I don't recall the price of AC +2 bracers - 4k is the cost for gloves of dex +2, potion of endurance is 500 I think...) If there is money left over, try something like a potion of darkvision - make the party drop/loose light sources. Or a ring of jumping if there is rough terrain or any small crevasses that could be avoided to aid in those hit and run tactics.

The weapon finesse and bab are a good call. But how far are the monk likers here going to max out this NPC? I would wish he could shadow the PCs by wall, or had more range (slippers of spider climb, boots of striding and sprining) but if you keep optimizing this character you will find something to kill the party with. The question is about a general monk, not a super-duper min-max monk.

 

[Christian]

Str is the usual primary stat for fighters and barbarians. It is perfectly fair to assume they put great effort into pumping it up. It would be silly for you to assume the monk's Str increases much over the same period; your monk is spending cash on Wis and Dex and probably Con.

Maybe some monks do that ... my monk's highest attribute was Strength, I put his 4th level attribute point into it and was planning to but the subsequent bonus points there as well. If you're wanting an effective combat monk, there's no better choice ... I think most players don't do that because (a) they're overwhelmed by the thought of the monk's low AC, and (b) the monk 'image' doesn't include 'big muscular guy'. But the fact is, monks get lots of attacks, and the flurry of blows compares favorably to 2WF in that the full strength bonus applies to the extra attack. This makes strength more useful to combat monks than to fighter-types.

IMHO, of course. But also IME-ol' Zanthater sometimes shocked the other PC's (and even the DM) with the amount of damage he could deal out. 3d8+9 is pretty significant at 6th level-and happened considerably more often than the fighter critical hitting with his battleaxe.

 

[LokiDR]

Monks at 7th level are playable as PCs because of the synergy of Stun with sneak attacks, and other good teamwork tactics. Alone he is pretty hopeless.

Hmm...maybe you should add a handful of 3rd level rogues, monks, and rogue/monks to help this NPC out?

One more time, this is not mean to kill the PCs. One lvl 7 monk is a CR 7. If this challenges the party, maybe I will change my stance that monks suck. Watching 5 monks who are set up, know the terrain, and optimized kill my hapless party wouldn't be a fair test, IMO.

I asked the followers of this thread if they could create a monk to challenge the party. Adding rogues just makes the rogues look good and make the monk a support character, which is why they suck. This monk is alone to show if monks can hold their own in a difficult situation (not a direct brawl).

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

One more time, this is not mean to kill the PCs. One lvl 7 monk is a CR 7. If this challenges the party, maybe I will change my stance that monks suck. Watching 5 monks who are set up, know the terrain, and optimized kill my hapless party wouldn't be a fair test, IMO.

I asked the followers of this thread if they could create a monk to challenge the party. Adding rogues just makes the rogues look good and make the monk a support character, which is why they suck. This monk is alone to show if monks can hold their own in a difficult situation (not a direct brawl).

Yeah. Good points.

I somehow suspect the monk will prove less of a problem that a CR 7 Hill Giant would to the same party. Giving the monk a significant edge based on knowledge of a favorable terrain also would make this an EL 8, to my view.

 

[wolff96]

For the monk posted earlier... He's not really all that min-maxed. You could make him a lot meaner.

The +7/+4 is a good catch. I'm too used to statting up people on the normal attack progression, I guess...

As to the BAB -- yes, he would be a bit tougher if you swap out the Weapon Focus for Weapon Finesse. Since I can't count (I was thinking he got TWO stat increases, though at 7 he gets only one), I was intending to have a 14 STR. Since that dropped down, Weapon Finesse is a better choice.

As to the potions, I just took a relatively standard suite for a monk. Replacing one potion with a potion of Greater Magic Fang would be a good idea.

I set out to post a pretty "normal" monk. I didn't want to really min-max it; after all, any class will look good in specific situations if you really go all out to make it good in that one instance.

 

[Guilt Puppy]

Replying to the topic of the thread (as opposed to the eight pages of circular arguments), in my experience monks are every bit as effective and useful as any other class, all things considered.

In combat: Not as effective as the fighter-types. Monks are not fighter types. What they do have, however, is enough protection (saving throws, healing, adequate hit die, et cetera) to survive on the front lines while still doing something. Can't say the same for rogues, who have to be careful and try to get in a few sneak attacks, or arcane casters, who just have to fly the hell out of there.

For sneaking/stealth: Not as effective as rogues. Again, they're not supposed to be. They can, however, maintain stealth alongside the rogues, and sneak on in to places where fighters, clerics, et cetera would never be able to go. And when they do run into traps and whatnot, they have evasion, and they have good saves all around. They can handle it.

For exploring/adventuring: Enough class skills to move around in tough terrain. Spot and Listen aren't class skills, but they should have a high wisdom, so they'll stand a chance at those checks.

And on... The point is, monks aren't a class that does one particular thing well -- rather, they're designed to be really damned versatile, and end up being at minor assets in any given situation. Further, they don't really have a weak point (as they're well-protected by their saves, and have a far lower reliance on items than any other class), so you know that whatever situation your party ends up in, the monk's always going to be able to contribute something.

Of course, this is all abstract. In the game I'm running, it's about what I see. All things considered, the monk has been the party's most effective player: They've yet to run into a situation where he's really failed to contribute.

In their current adventure, the party has been trying to gather information about a cult of evil monks. They've found this to be a particularly difficult task: Monks are tough bastards, their spellcasters can do little against them, it's hard to catch them by surprise... There's really not much you can do to gain the upper hand against them. What's worse, once you get into combat with them, one is always sure to escape, and there's not much you can do about it.

 

[Villano]

Villano, I understand what you mean now. However, one of the monk prestige classes in OA gets buffs a certain amount of times per day, no? Would you be borrowing from that?

I still disagree with you, but I see where you're going with it, and it is logical. My idea of the monk is very different though. And this is where what hong said comes into play: everyone has a different idea of what the monk should do. Hence, problem.

I had to look through my copy of OA twice to find the monk PrC you were referring to, the Shintao Monk and his Touch Of The Void Dragon ability (1d4+1 to 1 ability score 1 hr/level, once per day).

No, although similar to what I had in mind, I wasn't influenced by it (the fact is, since I'm not playing a monk in the current Rokugan game I'm in, I haven't read anything of the monk PrCs since I got the book...I'm a samurai, btw).

Truthfully, my idea is more expansive. Not just stat boosts, but spider climb and such. I just wanted to create a monk that can do the sort of wire-fu that Jet Li and the like can. I don't think that this is out of line or too powerful since the party may have a barbarian who's eventually stronger than a giant.

Now, as to address the problem of different ideas of what a monk should be. Quite frankly, that's why I'd go with the bonus feats instead of a set of special abilities. This way you can customize your monk to what you'd like. You can go for stealth or power, weapons or grappling.

This would also simulate the different styles of martial arts. No one would confuse wushu with judo. If no two martial art styles are the same, then why are all monks?

3E gives you the choice with fighters to make a heavily armored, battle axe weilding tank, an archer, or a finessed swashbuckler. I just think that the same option should exist for monks.