What's Up With The Monk?

[LokiDR]

My point exactly, which is why I think a level 7 monk should not be considered CR 7. A CR 7 creature should be on a relatively equal basis with another CR 7 creature, which a single character never is.

What the two do to the party should be on relatively equal basis. There are other CR7 monsters that aren't nearly as good at smashing as the hill giant, but they still challenge the party in a relatively similar mannor.

 

[LokiDR]

I've got a few of questions concerning this party, sorry if any of these seem stupid:

1. Is this a 5th level party? Although I see a 4th level character I see two 6th characters along with two 5th level characters.

The average is 5.2 for the whole party. Since the lvl 4 is a human reincarnated as a centar, maybe I should raise the average a bit. But, yes, this is a "5th level party", APL 5

2. I thought CR's were based for 4 member parties? I see 5 here.

As the CR system was explained to me, it is based on a 4-7 member group. That was the standard size in the "offical" campaigns of Living City and Living Greyhawk.

3. Not that it matters much (except in feats and skill points) but what race is the monk/fighter 5 (or did I miss that in a post somewhere)?

I don't think it matters much, but he is human. For the record, that player doesn't think much of monks either.

Or am I just being stupid/ignorant concerning CR's here?

I am starting to think no one here understands the CR system the same. I think I understand it, but others seem to disagree

 

[Forrester]

A CR7 means an even challenge for a party of 7th level. This has nothing to do with a character at level X in a one-on-one with a monster of CR X. Could the hill giant sneak into a camp and steal an item undected? D&D isn't always about combat. A rogue that keeps sneak attacking the party could do just as much damage as the hill giant (maybe more), just in a different way.

CR is not Character Level Equivilant. It is a Challenge Rating.

In a word, "No".

Also, "No, no, no, and no."

A CR7 is not an even challenge for a 7th level party. It is a challenge that is supposed to consume approximately one quarter of the party's resources.

In essence, CR is roughly "Character level equivalent" in terms of strength.

This means that yes, combat-oriented characters of 7th level should be able to take on a Hill Giant. Luckily, they CAN.

I will put up the 7th level fighter/barbarian mix character of a player in my campaign against a Hill Giant any day of the week. After raging and a potion of Bull's Strength he's got about +16 to hit and is doing about 23 points of damage a swing, not to mention about 70hp of his own. I think Mr. Hill Giant is going to be given a run for his money.

A 7th level mage can get off a Hold or Charm Monster to take care of the problem, or cast Fly and then blast his target with Enervates or summoned monsters.

A 7th level combat cleric/meat shield might be able to hold his own, but he'd have a tougher time. But he's not "meant" to do well alone.

Ditto for Mr. Troll; I'd put a well-equipped 5th level fighter (who carries around a few flasks of Alchemist's Fire) against a Troll, and expect (narrow) victory about half the time.

The CR system works, people.

 

[Villano]

I would much agree with a more customizable monk. But I also don't think that many of the standard spells work well for the monk. Spider climb, probably. Haste, maybe. anything evoke? no. illussion: not really. Maybe a host of new spells, or paladin spells cross over.

Well, since the "supernatural" abilites of a monk wouldn't come into play until higher levels, you wouldn't need that many of them. The monk's spell list would be about equal in length to the ranger and paladin.

Just off-hand, I can think of bull strength, cat's grace, haste, feather fall, jump, freedom of movement, spider climb, and pass without a trace.

Magic fang seems like a natural.

You can add air walk for a true Tsui Hark wire-fu effect. Blur might possibly work, too.

And don't forget about physical enhancement spells that are aimed at durability and endurance, such as endure elements, negative energy protection, and resistance.

Since the monk can heal his own wounds, regenerate might be a good, high-level spell.

There are also a lot of spells which would work very well with the monk's enhanced mental abilities. Darkvision, screen, nondection, undectable alignment, true seeing, and see invisibility. Invisibility to undead might work, too.

And, since monks are known for their unarmed combat, a few touch attack spells would work really nice. Ghoul touch seems in line with other monk paralyzing feats and abilities found in the PHB and OA.

I think if you go through the spell list in the PHB, it wouldn't be too difficult to come up with a good, ranger-length list.

 

[LokiDR]

Well, since the "supernatural" abilites of a monk wouldn't come into play until higher levels, you wouldn't need that many of them. The monk's spell list would be about equal in length to the ranger and paladin.

Just off-hand, I can think of bull strength, cat's grace, haste, feather fall, jump, freedom of movement, spider climb, and pass without a trace.

Magic fang seems like a natural.

You can add air walk for a true Tsui Hark wire-fu effect. Blur might possibly work, too.

And don't forget about physical enhancement spells that are aimed at durability and endurance, such as endure elements, negative energy protection, and resistance.

Since the monk can heal his own wounds, regenerate might be a good, high-level spell.

There are also a lot of spells which would work very well with the monk's enhanced mental abilities. Darkvision, screen, nondection, undectable alignment, true seeing, and see invisibility. Invisibility to undead might work, too.

And, since monks are known for their unarmed combat, a few touch attack spells would work really nice. Ghoul touch seems in line with other monk paralyzing feats and abilities found in the PHB and OA.

I think if you go through the spell list in the PHB, it wouldn't be too difficult to come up with a good, ranger-length list.

All good spells, that work well with the monk. I guess I was a bit hasty, thinking of only flashy mage-type stuff. I don't think that spells are a great rout though for customizing. High level monks tend to be pretty jiggy already. If you did go with spells, some of the higher level stuff should be spells. Also, I don't think of monks using material components.

Having a series of feats for higher level abilities would be a better rout, so you don't suppercharge the monk.

On a side note: has anyone ever tried a monk sorrcer, specializing in the things a monk does but with some magic?

 

[LokiDR]

In a word, "No".

Also, "No, no, no, and no."

A CR7 is not an even challenge for a 7th level party. It is a challenge that is supposed to consume approximately one quarter of the party's resources.

In essence, CR is roughly "Character level equivalent" in terms of strength.

.....

The CR system works, people.

I did not mean even as in "kills the party 50% of the time". I meant an encounter that the PCs wouldn't just blow off (5 goblins) or get TPKed by (great wrym red dragon). You are right on with the "use 1/4 of the parties resources."

In my personal experience a brute monster is better than the average brute PC in terms of head to head, but YMMV. The PC will tend to use tatics to level the playing field though. A min-maxed PC is a much different story.

I only was trying to say that the CR 7 and the Lvl 7 will do roughly the same amount of damage to the party. Or would, if monks didn't suck.

 

[S'mon]

In a word, "No".

Also, "No, no, no, and no."

A CR7 is not an even challenge for a 7th level party. It is a challenge that is supposed to consume approximately one quarter of the party's resources.

In essence, CR is roughly "Character level equivalent" in terms of strength.

This means that yes, combat-oriented characters of 7th level should be able to take on a Hill Giant. Luckily, they CAN.

I will put up the 7th level fighter/barbarian mix character of a player in my campaign against a Hill Giant any day of the week. After raging and a potion of Bull's Strength he's got about +16 to hit and is doing about 23 points of damage a swing, not to mention about 70hp of his own. I think Mr. Hill Giant is going to be given a run for his money.

A 7th level mage can get off a Hold or Charm Monster to take care of the problem, or cast Fly and then blast his target with Enervates or summoned monsters.

A 7th level combat cleric/meat shield might be able to hold his own, but he'd have a tougher time. But he's not "meant" to do well alone.

Ditto for Mr. Troll; I'd put a well-equipped 5th level fighter (who carries around a few flasks of Alchemist's Fire) against a Troll, and expect (narrow) victory about half the time.

The CR system works, people.

I agree - as per the DMG, a 7th level character-class NPC is CR 7, ie about equal a threat as a CR 7 hill giant (give or take about 25%, the 'graininess' of the CR system). I've seen a 7th level Sorcerer PC haste up and take down a hill giant akmost single handed, it's certainly possible. Of course some MM CRs are a bit low - I raised ogres to CR 3 and (eventually) Ettins to CR 6 for my lowish-magic game, equally Succubi at CR 9 are too high, I lowered them to CR 7, same as erinyes. But in principle it stands.

 

[LokiDR]

I agree - as per the DMG, a 7th level character-class NPC is CR 7, ie about equal a threat as a CR 7 hill giant (give or take about 25%, the 'graininess' of the CR system). I've seen a 7th level Sorcerer PC haste up and take down a hill giant akmost single handed, it's certainly possible. Of course some MM CRs are a bit low - I raised ogres to CR 3 and (eventually) Ettins to CR 6 for my lowish-magic game, equally Succubi at CR 9 are too high, I lowered them to CR 7, same as erinyes. But in principle it stands.

Ok, so do you think a 7th level monk could face a hill giant?

 

[Acmite]

Ok, so do you think a 7th level monk could face a hill giant?

With spring attack, boots of striding and springing, maxed out Tumble, and a wide open space?

You bet. It would just take him a long time.

Unless Hill Giants have some method of healing themsleves I can't remember.....

 

[Acmite]

Oops! You asked if a monk could face a Hill Giant. Definitely!

And my post above refers to his chances of defeating said Hill Giant.

Edited to add bold and italics