What's Up With The Monk?

[S'mon]

Just out of curiosity (not trashing the players or the characters), how did they justify the multiclassing in-game?

Comboing classes is often tricky storywise.

Both were trained in the Ways of Crane, an oriental-type exotic Order that teaches combat, stealth and sorcerous arts as well as zen-type mysticism. The Fighter Monk was a Guardian of Crane's Palace, a type of soldier-monk. The multi-classing was all before the start of the campaign, so no problem IMO.

 

[LokiDR]

I don't remember which page the combo items is in the dmg, probably one of the behind the curtain sections. I don't have the dmg here. Personally though I don't consider it in any way an expansion on the rules. I would actually look at attempts to keep the items to those specifically listed as a narrowing of the rules.

Already answered by another poster: p243, "Behind the Scences" sidebar. I have never used this, but appearently it is common in other games. Fair enough. But now you are telling me that in a general campaign, you tracked down an elven wizard, paid him the money, and think this is prefectly normal? Lots of settings make this really hard. You are not going to find these boots in a random treasure. I am not being too limited in my thinking, you are trying to find the absolute best for your monk, which doesn't work in a general case. If you could craft them yourself, fine. How can you justify j-random monk having these boots?

I'm sure it is in the SRD the monks speed that is, but I think saying 80 or 100 movment was more than clear enough and in no way weakened my case. If you think it does I think you are trying too hard to find flaws in any pro-monk argument.

You were wrong, I pointed it out. The more simple mistakes you make, the weak your overall case gets.

Partial charge with a move of 100 and spring attack can put you a very long way from the party. Lets say he sneaks up to within 20' of the party. presumedly he picks a location where he can hit and run a good distance in a straight line, like an intersection. This line should probably be at some kind of angle so after the hit the run puts him out of a direct line of fire. And also considering it is indoors would very likely either put him out of visable range(torches, darkvision etc) or out of line of sight like a pillar or corner. He then can rehide at basically no penalty. This wont work much, I figure two runs until the party is savy. Time one compleate surprise, time 2 they eventually figure he left and just gave them a parting shot. time 3 the party tries to make it look like their guard is dropped to lure him in with their readied actions. Time 3 is where he leads them into a trap of somekind. If you want to use all his skill points give him points in craft trapmaking. He can also make different style attempts in try 3. For example throw a bunch of smokesticks, and thunderstones at the party. (maybe that's a set trap) If anyone foolishly stumbles out on their own, especially a weak mage type he moves in for the kill.

Now you are finally giving me the tatics I asked for in the first place. You didn't mention smoke sticks or thunderstones in your original equipment list, but they are pretty cheap. I do see a few problems with you partial charge theory though. You have to move in a straight line. This means the party gets to shoot at you, if they win initive. Now to the question of light. Your monk was human, so how are you moving around? Don't even try to tell me you "know the terain" because people trip over stuff in their own houses all the time, and this is a presumablely decent sized catacomb. I see you falling down and making more noise, not hiding.

You are simply countering any specific point I make about problems with you monk by amending your monk more and more. Didn't you think of this before you posted the monk?

And no I don't think it is likely he can drag the mage off quietly. But stunning blow's only pre-req seems to be unarmed damage caused. A surprise grapple could cause damage, and a stun. I'd allow players to try and grapple for damage, while doing something like grabbing the opponents mouth to keep them quiet. I'd put big penalties on the sneak checks, but I think it could be done. It seems to be a very apprpriate action considering what we see in movies and read in books. And if stunned druing the grapple attempt how much noise will the mage make. Now obviosuly the person targeted couldn't be in the sight if other members, but the rear guard(cleric?) could be targetd with less chance of success. If you could get the party to follow the monk with his high movement, and knowledge of the terain he likely could loop around the party and come in on whoever is trailing behind and this might actually be the wiz/sor types who want to hang in the back.

I don't play horror games. The person in the back is not picked off that easily. There is no cleric in the posted (and reposted) party. Your tatic might work, if you explained it this way in the first place, but I don't think you can charge in, grapple, stun, carry target off, and move out of sight on a partial action. The rules I will use to back this up are on page 137 of the PH, grappling. You must make an attack while grappling to do one of the following.... This seems to say that your first attack is just grabbing them, the next attack is damaging them. Problem: you only have one attack. Also, you must escape the pin before taking a move. No dragging away in partial charge, or really in a full attack.

 

[LokiDR]

I can't see why it's dumb. Spring attack is just move/attack/move. You get both movement and an attack in a partial charge. So it works for me. And no it doesn't change the entire move must be in a straight line clause.(which means if you want to get out of sight with the partial charge/spring attack you have to be selective in how/where you use this) Some didn't like it because charge mentions you end your movement at the attack. That was clarified, when people asked that they were just letting people know that the standard rules of move+attack were still there charge didn't give you spring attack for free. But if you did purchase spring attack then yes you could charge and partial charge with it.

Personally I think not allowing it would be dumb. Someone just spent 3 feats on the ability to move/attack/move. Not allowing them to use it during a partial charge, makes an already mediocre feat kinda weak.

I don't think that spring attack is mediocre. I think the discussion on this thread should have proved that. A straight charge: sure, I can see that, but you had better win initive next round or be prepared to be hit. Partial charge+spring attack is kinda nifty, but I don't think it is amazing.

 

[LokiDR]

Ok, I have seen only one monk discussed here in any kind of detail: the hit and fade monk. Dogde, mobility, spring attack, and the infamous "boots of cheat" better know as striding and springing.

Is that the one thing that monks do? If you take other feat progressions, are you just stupid? I'll buy that this might be non-sucky character at 3th-9th level. It has yet be seen (upcoming fight) but it could be cool.

If any one has any other ideas about how to make a cool monk without the afore mentioned feat string, try posting that. Or is this just the "exception that proves the rule"?

 

[Christian]

Ok, I have seen only one monk discussed here in any kind of detail: the hit and fade monk. Dogde, mobility, spring attack, and the infamous "boots of cheat" better know as striding and springing.

Is that the one thing that monks do? If you take other feat progressions, are you just stupid? I'll buy that this might be non-sucky character at 3th-9th level. It has yet be seen (upcoming fight) but it could be cool.

If any one has any other ideas about how to make a cool monk without the afore mentioned feat string, try posting that. Or is this just the "exception that proves the rule"?

That type of monk is probably the most effective battle-monk. There are other types of monks, but they're less suited for hand-to-hand than for other roles (eg. scout or sniper). If you like a stand-up beat 'em down damage-sucking melee character, play a fighter or barbarian.

Oh, and BTW-if you want to complain about other people extending the core rules to make their monks better, I recommend you drop your 'boots of cheat' comment. It's a core item, the price has been fixed in the errata, and when you complain about them you sound childish. I'm not going to complain about how much more effective the fighter is with his stacking armor bonuses from his magic armor and shield; please don't complain about how much more effective the monk is with her boots of striding and springing. Yes, the magic items are directly aimed at improving their strongest point. Everyone has something like that, and the monk fewer than most. Deal.

 

[Gizzard]

Is {Spring Attack} the one thing that monks do? If you take other feat progressions, are you just stupid? I'll buy that this might be non-sucky character at 3th-9th level.

Well, since it take 3 Feats (Dodge->Mobility->Spring Attack) and a +4 BAB you cant get it below 6th level. Not that that matters; Spring Attack is a lot less useful when your Base Move is 30' or 40'.

So, dont worry, even if Spring Attack rocks, you can still count on sucking until at least 6th level. ;-) Maybe longer if you chose some of the other Feats people have suggested like Weapon Finesse, Expertise or Improved Initative instead of going directly up the Spring Attack Feat chain.

Actually, I'm not convinced that a Spring Attack Monk is all that cool. Perhaps I misunderstand the rules here, but since multiple attacks are a full round action, a Spring Attack Monk can only slap his foe once and then scamper away. He cant Flurry, so he's looking at running up and doing d8+STR damage at 7th level. (Grabbing Wizards and running away seems right out, just the Encumbrance issues should kill this idea.) So is d8+STR damage every 3-5 rounds a threat to an average party facing a CR7 monster?

And, I still think that an effective fighter in a party setting has to be able to hold his ground. Like it or not, the Wizards and Clerics need a meat shield to cover for them; you cant just flit around the battlefield leaping and running and hiding, no matter how cool Spring Attack is as a tactic.

 

[LokiDR]

That type of monk is probably the most effective battle-monk. There are other types of monks, but they're less suited for hand-to-hand than for other roles (eg. scout or sniper). If you like a stand-up beat 'em down damage-sucking melee character, play a fighter or barbarian.

Oh, and BTW-if you want to complain about other people extending the core rules to make their monks better, I recommend you drop your 'boots of cheat' comment. It's a core item, the price has been fixed in the errata, and when you complain about them you sound childish. I'm not going to complain about how much more effective the fighter is with his stacking armor bonuses from his magic armor and shield; please don't complain about how much more effective the monk is with her boots of striding and springing. Yes, the magic items are directly aimed at improving their strongest point. Everyone has something like that, and the monk fewer than most. Deal.

"Boots of Cheat" was a joke. I should have added a smile or two, but that was how it was intended. You have to admit, a number of portions of this discussion have been childish.

Now for monks. With the listed feats and magic item, could a rogue or barbarian do a better job? What would a monk hold over a rogue acting as a scout or sniper? In the case of the speedy monk, you have a slight movement advantage over a barbarian, and far less damage, less hit points, and potentially less AC (more magic vs higher stats)

What are your advantages over the ranger as a sniper? The ranger has a better selection of weapons.

I am still looking for something that monk outshines others at. Does the slight mobility of the monk over barb show a clear advantage?

 

[Forrester]

That type of monk is probably the most effective battle-monk. There are other types of monks, but they're less suited for hand-to-hand than for other roles (eg. scout or sniper). If you like a stand-up beat 'em down damage-sucking melee character, play a fighter or barbarian.

Oh, and BTW-if you want to complain about other people extending the core rules to make their monks better, I recommend you drop your 'boots of cheat' comment. It's a core item, the price has been fixed in the errata, and when you complain about them you sound childish. I'm not going to complain about how much more effective the fighter is with his stacking armor bonuses from his magic armor and shield; please don't complain about how much more effective the monk is with her boots of striding and springing. Yes, the magic items are directly aimed at improving their strongest point. Everyone has something like that, and the monk fewer than most. Deal.

Bitch moan, bitch moan.

I was the one who coined the "Boots of Cheat" expression, and I stick to it. The boots are still underpriced.

Just face it -- the monk you described is pretty much WORTHLESS without the Boots.

Don't pretend it's Just Another Piece Of Equipment.

A Barbarian with a +2 sword instead of a +1 sword isn't worthless -- that's a 6k difference.

A Fighter with a +1 shield instead of a +3 shield isn't worthless -- that's an 8k difference.

A Cleric with a +2 Pearl of Wisdom instead of a +4 Pearl of Wisdom isn't worthless -- that's a 12k difference.

But a Monk without Boots of Striding and Springing who gets involved in almost any combat against a reasonably strong foe . . . well, he may not be worthless, but he's pretty damn close.

Until he dies horribly, of course. Then he's completely worthless.

 

[apsuman]

Ok,

After an iffy net connection, I have finally come up with my first (with possible alternatives to follow) level 7 monk.

But first, some explanation...

30 point by, every feat and magic item comes from the phb and dmg.

I wanted to really play with the possibilies, at one time I had a monk with expertise, power attack, improved disarm, sunder, a belt of giant str, and his fav weapon was a quaterstaff (a non-monk weapon). His tactic was to trip, disarm or sunder your weapons. But bowing to the logic of the thread, a barbarian could do the same thing, so I decided on something a little more... expected.

I did not want them to be slaves to a single magic item, if so, I would have chosen boots of striding and springing.

I chose human for the extra feat and skill points. It made the 10 Int easier to handle. Also, I thought of switching the STR with the WIS and taking weapon finesse, but from early on in this thread I said that people should not try to max just dex and wis, so I followed my own advise here. The attribute bonus at level 4 would have gone into either STR or DEX (one of them started at 15).

Also, unlike the 6 CHR and 6 INT fighter (or was it a barbarian?), i tried to make a character I would like to play and imagine I would make over the course of 7 levels.

Finally, I tried to make a monk that would be the protector of the catacomb and chose items accordingly, I did not try to maximize his versus a party of 5. Other wise I would have chosen 4 beads of force for my magic items.

Feel free to inspect and correct my math.

Zo, level 7 human monk.

Str 16
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 8

HP 42

AC : 10 + 3 dex + 2 wis + 1 monk = 16
17 w/Dodge
20 Hasted
21 hasted w/dodge

BAB +5/+2
AAB +5 +3 str +1 magic kama = +9
+9/+6 or +7/+7/+4 with flurry


Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, power attack

Saves: Fort +6 Ref +8 Will +7

Skills:

Skill points : 50
Listen : 9 + 2 = +11
Tumble : 10 + 3 = +12
Jump : 5 +3 = +8
Hide : 9 +3 = +12
Move Silent : 10 +3 = +13
Climb : 5 + 3 = +10
Swim : 2 + 3 = +5


Items:
Kama +1 : 2302 gp
Cloak of Arachnia: 6000 gp
Brooch of Shielding : 1500 gp
Monk's Belt: 9000
2 potions of Cure light wounds : 100 gp
1 potion of jumping : 50 gp

total : 18952 gp

Tactics:

The cloak and the brooch provide protection from two spells that might otherwise put a quick stop to the monk.

The Cloak will cast a web as per the spell once per day. This would effectively hold fast the entire party, or at least slow them considerably (-2 to their attacks AND -4 to thier DEX). The cloak allows half speed movement in the web for the wearer.

Using the haste from the belt, simply engaging the casters in the web first is probably the best bet. At -2 to thier AC and -2 to their BAB, casters would be beaten in short order. The kama would do 1d6+1+3 (str) for an average of 7.5 per hit. A level 6 wizard with a 14 con and a toad familiar would have on average, 34 HP, that's five hits. Depending on how you would rule, using the improved trip to trip them in the web (if possible) then prone they would be +4 easier to hit, combined with a power attack, they meet their end sooner.

There might be some real benefit to using improved trip on everyone he can reach. Simply spring in, trip them, then get a free smack, then spring out. Getting up would be a feat in and of itself inside a web, and they would still not have moved from their start spot.

Without the web, this guy would stay behind the group, try to be silent and hide, pick the best time, run in and attack, placing himself at the point where he would be attacked by the fewest number. The extra partial action makes that stunning attempt easier to attempt. Engage for a few rounds, then as HP are dropping, evade then heal himself, and take potions, then come back. Primary targets should be wizards, and/or clerics. Taking out the cleric first might be the easiest way to cripple the party, but it should be harder than taking out the wizard.

I chose the magic items I did for a few reasons. First, I wanted to protect my character from a few spells that can really hurt a monk, magic missle, and web. Second, the best advantage of the monk is the mobility, putting others in a web while being able to move about it really helps keep the distace from the barbarian and fighter while allowing access to the wizard and cleric. The haste option from the belt allows that necessary partial action to do so many useful things, like take that extra attack or step back.

After this monk is picked apart (which I am sure it will be) I will post alternatives.


g!

 

[Forrester]

Apsuman -- that's a good build, I must say. I can't help but wonder whether I'd rather have a fighter or barbarian with the cloak in that situation, though. The monk isn't going to stand up for very long against any fighter who happens to be standing next to one of the mages (not unlikely) who can take a 5' step and get next to the monk (also not entirely unlikely).

A 5th level fighter with a 30 point buy would (if I were making him) have an 18 strength and a +1 weapon and Weapon Specialization, do 2d6+9 points per hit, and have an attack bonus of +11. The monk's going to be in trouble.

Still, more interesting than the Spring Attack monkey .

Worth pointing out, though, that the Reflex save for the Web is going to be DC13, right? Need a 12 Int to cast Web, so +1 for Int, +2 for spell, base DC10.

With a DC13 save, at least half the spellcasters (assuming they have a good Dex) will save, the party rogue will probably save, and half the fighters will save. The Monk might manage to get off a Flurry and then retreat (solely because of the Haste effect), but probably not more than once before he has to worry a bunch about readied actions.