D&D 4E What's Wrong With 4e Simply Put

[grimslade]

Here is why I think I am going to like 4E better than 3.5E without even worrying about the rules or changes in 4E. With the new edition announcement, people in my area are talking about D&D again. There was a huge decline in players and DMs during the last 5 years since the release of 3.5 and all the splats. Hopefully, more people will be playing D&D with the coming of 4E because they are playing everything but D&D now.

 

[Crashy75]

The only thing that bothers me atm is the whole "preview" thing but that's marketing. As for the rules/fluff changes that I’ve seen, I'm either pleased or neutral.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

The problem is that 4E is not just fixing what's _not working_ well, it is also "fixing" what _is working_ well. It is making needless fixes to what is not broken. So to speak, 4e fixes what's broken but also fixes what's _not_ broken. Whether this is out of a "change for change sake," an "in for a penny, in for a pound mentality," or that the designers just don't know when to quit, I can't say.

I'm not passing judgment until I see the final product, but from what I know at this point, 4e is leaving me cold for this reason. If it ain't broke, 4e should not be trying to fix it.

Unless you're 12 years old and bringing in tens of thousands of your friends to play, you're wrong.

The game (and the industry) needs new players if it's going to survive. Trying to sell the same product they didn't buy before isn't going to bring them in.

At the end of the day, WotC is doing what it and the industry needs it to do, even if it upsets some older players.

 

[Agamon]

Multiclassing is not bad right now...but I think 4e wants to idiot-proof it.

Your example isn't the problem. If a PC splits his classes evenly between a spellcasting class and any other class, he's no longer all that useful in a higher level party. Just look at all the PrCs that have tried to fix specific examples of that over the years.

 

[Dragonblade]

Changes I already resent:
- Reshuffling demons and devils
- At will magics for wizards
- Eladrin
- Virtually anything related to the Book of Nine Swords
- Stripping hit dice/type information out of monsters (why not just simplify it?)
- Stripping iconic monsters from the MM
- Eladrin
- And the whole elf retcon that resulted in the appearance of the eladrin
- Retcons in general
- Tieflings as a core race, rather than a rare monster
- Invalidating the Fiendish Codeces
- Changing the damage of fireball. Why?

I'm either neutral on or LOVE these changes! Book of 9 Swords was the BEST 3.5 product released. More Bo9S is a great thing!!!

 

[see]

Many of the best non vanilla settings throughout the history of D&D such as Dragonlance, Dark Sun, Midnight, Ravenloft, etc. surgically remove D&Disms to allow for the setting to actually have a personality

And now you'll have to surgically remove 4eisms to play those settings, and do the same to play in Greyhawk, Birthright, the pre-Spellplague Realms, Planescape, and any other setting developed in the last 30 years that uses D&Disms instead of 4eisms. This is progress like snow is black.

 

[psionotic]

I think its interesting that people are claiming 4e is dumbing down or 'idiot-proofing' D&D. Older versions of D&D were very complicated to learn, what with their inane charts and billions of rules systems, yet they were tactically very simple. "I hit him with my sword." Position, speed, etc, were (largely) irrelevant.

In the last 10 years, the game has gotten easier to learn and to play, yet tactically more complex. That makes the experience better for new players, and more satisfying for those who are really into fun battles.

4e seems to be continuing this trend, and I, for one, am glad.

Overall though, I'm pretty easy. If they can make high level combat balanced, fun, and more importantly, fast; than they've sold me. I've given up running above level 13 or so, because 3.x is terribly slow and bothersome (not to mention overly erratic and random) beyond that. And since these are problems that have to do with system math, and the system's underlying assumptions (passive magic items and spells provide too much of your power, keeping track of multiple buffing spells and their durations, etc), a simple houserule is not going to fix it. You need to tear everything out and starting over. Hence, 'Viva 4e.'

 

[WhatGravitas]

Just look at all the PrCs that have tried to fix specific examples of that over the years.

Very true. The very existence of the Mystic Theurge, Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster (even if he isn't that hot) show something is rotten in the state of Denmark!

Cheers, LT.

 

[Mercule]

Considering I'd come to the conclusion -- just before the announcement was made -- that 3.5 was too much of a PITA to run and was planning on dropping the system, anyway, I don't see how I could see the release of 4E as anything other than a break-even.

Worst case is that I still stop playing D&D. At least it sounds like I won't have to ponder whether Hero is a less complex system, which is the case with 3.5E.

 

[wingsandsword]

As has been said, new system

The thing is, so many little things are being changed, things that have been quite constant throughout editions, that this new system is really not even D&D anymore. They may put the name Dungeons and Dragons on it, but it's not recognizable as it.

Example: In 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 3.5 editions, you could talk about how your Gnomish Illusionist ran out of spells for the day so he had to lay low for a while. Come 4e, no Gnome PC's, no Illusionists, and no running out of spells.

With prior edition changes, they might have done little things like take some classes out (Like taking Assassin and Barbarian out for 2e) or putting in new concepts (like Prestige Classes in 3e, restoring the Assassin in the process), but there was a sense of continuity, that what was there was built on what came before. There was respect for the collected body of implied setting information (so called "fluff") and even as mechanics changed some things stayed pretty constant, like damage done from certain iconic spells.

4e takes that respect for the past and trashes it, it builds a whole new fantasy RPG from the ground up and attaches the name "Dungeons and Dragons" to it, in that sense it's a far bigger jump than the 1e to 2e, the 2e to 3e or the 3 to 3.5 jumps, it's an active severing of D&D from it's heritage, it's telling longtime veterans that they are obsolete and WotC wants new players. It's telling a lot of players that what they've come to expect and love about D&D is "wrong" and not fun and was not fun all along.

I've got bookcases and bookcases full of D&D books, I've spent thousands and thousands of dollars on D&D books since the early 90's, and I'm looking at 4e and seeing it as a signal from WotC that my money is no longer desired, they'd rather be selling to pre-teens as a way to compete with WoW