What's wrong with grappling?

[Quasqueton]

I see in the Best/Worst Rules in D&D thread several people have said grappling is one of the worst rules. Why?

The current adventure my group is on has involved many animated trees grabbing and bashing/squeezing the PCs. I've not seen a big problem with the mechanics of grappling. They're pretty easy, considering what they are working out, and how previous editions of the game handled it.

What is so difficult with grappling?

Quasqueton

 

[dcollins]

I don't have a problem with it, but I think some people may get irritated/confused by the unusually large number of rolls that need to be made to resolve a grappling attempt. That was intentional to make it hard to do, but it involves:

- One touch roll.
- One AOO resolution.
- Two rolls for opposed attacks using nonstandard Attack Bonus.
- Some details about sizing limits and damage/pin options.

It seems that for a lot of people these are just a bit too complicated. I must admit I can't think of another attack routine in the PHB that takes that many rolls to resolve (maybe Disarm or Trip in the case of a fail-and-counter-attempt).

 

[Davelozzi]

It seems that for a lot of people these are just a bit too complicated.

Yep, and on top of that, it rarely seems to work out.

 

[Darklone]

Simply explain in one sentence what you need to hold and/or pin someone and how he could counter. See?

 

[MarauderX]

All of the 'special combat' stuff is the same way: Trip, Disarm, Sunder, Grapple... it's knowing which is which and when to apply feats, etc. In my experiences no one tries to trip, grapple, or disarm unless they have the associated Improved feat to go with it so no AoOs are provoked.
IMO, grappling isn't the worst, and neither are the others. It's got the necessary items to keep it relatively simple to keep the game moving.

...but it could be a bit much when you have to look up 1) how grappling works; 2)touch attack AC; 3) Str for opposed roll; 4) what the results mean; 5) and resolution of pin, let alone if the grapple fails and now the opponent wants to grapple him back...

 

[Liquidsabre]

All of the 'special combat' stuff is the same way: Trip, Disarm, Sunder, Grapple... it's knowing which is which and when to apply feats, etc. In my experiences no one tries to trip, grapple, or disarm unless they have the associated Improved feat to go with it so no AoOs are provoked.
IMO, grappling isn't the worst, and neither are the others. It's got the necessary items to keep it relatively simple to keep the game moving.

...but it could be a bit much when you have to look up 1) how grappling works; 2)touch attack AC; 3) Str for opposed roll; 4) what the results mean; 5) and resolution of pin, let alone if the grapple fails and now the opponent wants to grapple him back...

Heh, on top of that try it with two grappler-characters at high-level with multiple attacks (i.e. grapples)

But seriously, I have no problems with Grapple and run through grapple as fast as anything else when I run games, be it a monster spell-like ability or special attack (trip, disarm, etc.). Plus 3.5 laid grapple out rather nicely, at least I thought so.

 

[Ferox4]

Does anyone remember the nightmare that grappling was in 1E? Whenever someone would say, "I'm going to grapple him," it was met with a chorus of groans and a tableful of grimaces - it was like sucking lemons. Our group has no issues with the 3.x version.

 

[foxylady]

The problem I have with grappling is that it's just about the only fighting tactic that can be completely negated. Freedom of Movement and the ring thereof totally negate grappling characters and monsters, with bonus immunities to Slow, Web, paralysis, and other sundry things. Unfortunately, you'll have the most success against other humanoids, who are also the most likely to have FoM items & spells. At mid-high levels the monsters tend to be too strong and too big for a PC grapple specialist to be effective against. I've played with a net specialist as a way to make an even better grappler but I never got it to work.

 

[The Souljourner]

2 problems -

1.) As you go up in level, monsters go up in size and strength - vastly quicker than PCs. Cloud Giant - CR 11, Grapple +32. 11th level grapple specialist fighter with 20 strength and +4 strength item - grapple +22. And that assumes you start with 18 strength and get improved grapple. And that's the *best* you can do - losing by 10. Far too often I've seen characters grappled and they simply have NO chance to get out.

2.) The rules for doing damage are really annoyingly laid out, and difficult to understand, especially when it comes to monsters with natural attacks. They really need to clear it up and make it make some kind of sense. Did you realize that you don't get your allotment of natural attacks in a grapple, but instead get iterative attacks based on your BAB? Did you notice that even natural attacks get -4 to hit? Did you notice that you can't succeed at an offensive grapple check against anything two or more sizes larger than you?

There's just lots of side rules and caveats and changes to the way Things Are Done™, which makes it difficult to keep up with.

-The Souljourner

 

[Liquidsabre]

The problem I have with grappling is that it's just about the only fighting tactic that can be completely negated. Freedom of Movement and the ring thereof totally negate grappling characters and monsters, with bonus immunities to Slow, Web, paralysis, and other sundry things. Unfortunately, you'll have the most success against other humanoids, who are also the most likely to have FoM items & spells. At mid-high levels the monsters tend to be too strong and too big for a PC grapple specialist to be effective against. I've played with a net specialist as a way to make an even better grappler but I never got it to work.

A ring of FoM cost some 40,000gp, if a character wants to commit at mid-levels that large a chunk to protect against grapples more power to them. Versus other humanoids, how many have rings of FoM? Is it that common in games?

You bring up a good point about creatures and that a grapple specialist PC will have many problems trying to do his thing against such beasts. It makes a good argument against making such a character.

In my experience Grapple works best as a trump for specific dangerous sitatuions. Getting a caster is always good this way if you can manaage it, and grappling the uber-AC humanoid that none can touch is a great way to take care of them.

Has anyone tried the new Reaping Mauler PrC in CW yet?