What's wrong with metamagic?

[Dimwhit]

Um...just curious, is there a reason you don't like magic item creation feats?

Sorry for the quick hijack, but this just seemed to be a wierd oversight.

Thanks!

Taking one item creation feat might be ok, but I've never bothered. Depends a lot on the campaign, though. My DMs don't tend to give characters several weeks or more to craft items, so it's wasted.

And the item creation (and craft) rules suck hard. People here talk about metamagic feats being bad...item creation feats stink far, far more.

 

[Sir Elton]

Taking one item creation feat might be ok, but I've never bothered. Depends a lot on the campaign, though. My DMs don't tend to give characters several weeks or more to craft items, so it's wasted.

And the item creation (and craft) rules suck hard. People here talk about metamagic feats being bad...item creation feats stink far, far more.

That's because this is a game where you play hero, so it's not about enchanting items. Strangely though, I think all "item enchantment" rules are a little weak. The strongest they have been are in Ars Magica.

 

[Thanee]

Clearly another cruel attempt to hamper the ass-kicking abilities of spellcasters in 3.5!

Nah, just an attempt to hamper the divine abuse of the feat... but "luckily", they introduced some other feats to get back to that road...

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

And the item creation (and craft) rules suck hard. People here talk about metamagic feats being bad...item creation feats stink far, far more.

You consider Scribe Scroll, Craft Wand, or Craft Wondrous Item weak?

Wow!

Sure, in a campaign where you have no time for item creation... but if you do, those feats are incredibly powerful. Craft Wondrous Item is probably the second most powerful feat, right after Leadership.

Bye
Thanee

 

[ruleslawyer]

At level 5: Vampiric Touch vs. Empowered Shocking Grasp: 2d6 (get temporary hit points)--avg damage: 7 vs. 5d6x1.5 (avg damage: 26). Advantage: Empowered Shocking Grasp.

Except that I'll take negative energy damage + healing over easily-resistable elemental damage any day.

At level 7: Empowered Scorching Ray vs. Enervation: 1d4 negative levels vs. (effectively) 12d6 fire damage. Advantage (IMO) scorching ray

I disagree on this as well, for several reasons:
1) 1d4 negative levels affect the target's saves, which is the real point of enervation to begin with;
2) Scorching ray is traditionally seen as overpowered anyway, which blunts the effect of your comparison, AND
3) We're back to talking about elemental damage vs. a non-elemental effect here. It's apples and oranges.

At level 11: Maximized Scorching Ray vs. disintegrate: 72 points of damage vs. 77, save for 17.5. Advantage: Maximized scorching ray (and it's a level lower) unless you want to disintegrate a door or a wall of force.

Again, I see this more as a problem with scorching ray. More to the point, however, this is elemental damage (easily resistable) vs. the least resistable attack form in the books, AND you're using the absolute border case here; disintegrate scales WAY up from 11th level, whereas scorching ray does not.

Well, yes. . . if you insist on applying metamagic inefficiently and using lousy metamagic feats like widen spell, your modified spell will suck. But you set out to design a sucky spell so that shouldn't be surprising. On the other hand, if you want 9th level damage to a single target, a maximized, energy admixed scorching ray will do in the neighborhood of 114 points of damage (assuming that the second energy type is not maximized too--if it is, that's 144 points of damage). The meteor swarm only does an average of 84. Sure, the meteor swarm is an area affect, but that's not always advantageous. Similarly, an empowered delayed blast fireball will do an average of 105 points of damage to the meteor swarm's 84.

Again with scorching ray. Can you use at least ONE other example of a suitable spell? Otherwise, this sort of comparison tends to make me worry about scorching ray, NOT think metamagic is better. And again, we're back at apples and oranges. For a 9th-level spell, I have my choice of gate, time stop, and power word kill; for those options, is the ability to inflict 144 points of elemental damage to one target that requires a ranged touch attack worth it? Hardly.

 

[Dimwhit]

Actually, yes. The time alone that is required to create those is way to great. And I don't think the cost is really worth that time. Granted, with tons of downtime it might be worth it, but I just don't think they're worth the effort.

My Wizard, who of course has Scribe Scroll, has yet to scribe a scroll. And at 17th level, I would never, ever consider it. I have too many spells to cast as it is. If I need a scroll, I just go buy it. Same goes with Wands or anything else.

Of course, player preference varies widely with this aspect of the game.

This is to say nothing, however, of the completely useless and retarted craft rules for forging weapons, armor, etc. I haven't looked closely in 3.5, but unless they changed drastically, those rules are even worse, IMO, than the craft feats.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Higher level spells vs. metamagic spells...

Nice analysis, Elder-Basilisk. The empowered fireball at around 9th-10th level and scorching ray at 7th or 11th level are intervals where metamagic really shines.

At level 11: Maximized Scorching Ray vs. disintegrate: 72 points of damage vs. 77, save for 17.5. Advantage: Maximized scorching ray (and it's a level lower) unless you want to disintegrate a door or a wall of force.

You probably ought to compare disintegrate with a twinned scorching ray (a 6th level spell)at 11th level. Twin Spell is from Complete Arcane, adds four levels and has the effect of casting a spell twice, as the name suggests. A twinned scorching ray deals 24d6 damage, an average of 84. Compare also an empowered orb spell at the same level. This does 16.5d6, average 58, though it has the benefit of ignoring SR.

Also at 11th level one might compare maximised fireball with chain lightning. The former deals a straight 60, the latter an average of 38.5. Advantage: Maximised fireball. Despite the benefits of chain lightning in a general melee situation IMX maximised fireball is still better.

The pattern keeps repeating. At any given level, the best damage dealer is a metamagicked lower level spell.

Disintegrate and enervate can be pretty good when metamagicked with Split Ray, also from Complete Arcane. At 15th level, a split ray disintegrate can do 60d6 if the target fails both saves. 210 points of damage will mess up just about anything pretty badly.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Again, I see this more as a problem with scorching ray. More to the point, however, this is elemental damage (easily resistable) vs. the least resistable attack form in the books,

Make up your mind. Elemental damage is weak but scorching ray, which deals elemental damage, is overpowered??! How can that be? (My opinion BTW is that scorching ray is good but but no means overpowered, partly due to the drawback of being greatly reduced by energy resistance.)

Anyway, scorching ray's weakness can be ameliorated by.... taa daa! Metamagic! Energy Substitution - Cold makes a fine combo with scorching ray, fireball and orb of fire. My wizard usually memorises one cold and one hot version. I hit fiery things with the former and frosty things with the latter. The monsters just can't win...

disintegrate scales WAY up from 11th level, whereas scorching ray does not.

But at those high levels you don't use disintegrate straight. You use sudden maximised, split ray disintegrate.

 

[kigmatzomat]

So what happens if the sorcerer gains Fireball or Analyse Dweomer without going through your roleplaying restrictions?

The same thing that happens if a wizard spends his 2 spells/level on them; they know the spell. I don't put any limitation on the self-derived spells. IMC the wizard is part of a guild and the guild has a large list of spells that are available no questions asked. Spells that can cause mass fatalities or chaos like fireballs, lightning bolts and charms, are not handed out freely. Really, do you want Charles Manson or Jeffrey Dahmer to have the mass charm spells?

You can either RP an encounter with a regent (possibly requiring a quest/task to prove you aren't a loony who's going to burn down a village) or acquire them with the freely-learned 2 spells/level. Since pretty much all the defensive, utility, and single-target attack spells are available but mostly limited due to time and expense, the 2 free spells get used for mostly mayhem-based spells or spells that no one in the immediate vicinity knows.

Do you restrict the sale of weapons and equipment to your martial characters due to also lawful society limitations?

Basic weapons and armor? No. Catapults and ballistae? Yes. Do the rulers have a spy network in place to notice if anyone buys enough weapons & armor to equip a small army? Yes. Do they try to keep track of Vorpal, Lifestealing and other more powerful magic items? Yes. Has it been an issue in the 18 levels we've played through? Not yet.

I could construct a campaign that makes it such that mages who cast spells which are not Widened instantly put to death. That doesn't make Widen Spell metamagic any less crap. It just means that I've artificially inflated the value of Widen Spell by introducing a house rule.

I will say that D&D has the problem that it is not intended for a *particular* gameworld. AU has the advantage that it customized the game world, same goes for Eberron and the MiniHB is for a simpler, more combat-heavy game. D&D is generalized and suitable for multiple scenarios but it can falter under certain conditions, particularly house rules and 3rd party supplements.

My arguement is that if you add a house rule that makes Widen crap then you've chosen to make it crap. The feats are balanced against the spells & rules in the core books. Use different rules, get different results. Don't use the RAW and get different results.

Fail to apply the cost for scribing spells and wizards become a lot more appealing than sorcerors. Don't worry about the weight or survival of the spellbooks and it gets even more appealing. (FYI the only time a wizard has lost his spellbooks IMC have been when they botched a save and their backpack was the destroyed item and the time they tried to cross a river and he failed his ride, handle animal *and* swim checks so he had to ditch his backpack or drown. The books were eventually recovered but he was sweating bullets for a while) Make spells available that mimic metamagicked spells but at lower level and you've made metamagic less appealing. That may be the case but don't claim metamagic is broken when your the one who broke it.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

A few notes here:

First, this is D&D not Hackmaster. There isn't a fireball spell at every level. Consequently when comparing spells of higher level vs. metamagic spells, there will amost ALWAYS be significant differences. Even the most apparently direct comparisons in the game (for instance, twinned fireball vs. delayed blast fireball) mask more subtle differences (the delayed blast fireball can be delayed, will burn right through a globe of invulnerability, and can't be negated by Spell Immunity for instance).

Except that I'll take negative energy damage + healing over easily-resistable elemental damage any day.

You're entitled to that view, but energy damage is not "easily resistable" at level 5. And, even with Electricity resist: 10, the empowered shocking grasp does twice as much damage as the vampiric touch. I'll grant that empowered shocking grasp has lost pretty much all of its luster by level 7, but that's true of most attack spells. After a while, lower level spell slots stop being effective offense. And other spells become possible that make the Empower Spell feat worth having. (Similarly, at level 1, you'll happily use weapon focus with a normal weapon but by level 20, you'll really want to be using it with a +5 Holy Evil Outsider Bane weapon of doom).

I disagree on this as well, for several reasons:
1) 1d4 negative levels affect the target's saves, which is the real point of enervation to begin with;

Myself, I find the attack and ability check penalty just as significant but the damage isn't to be overlooked. If there's a more direct comparison among 4th level spells, I'm happy to use it (and Empowered Scorching ray beats the energy orb spells too), but in the extremely generic category of "bad things to do to a single target with a 4th level slot and a ranged touch attack" empowered scorching ray seems like it will often be better than enervation. After all, why reduce an opponents saves and attacks when you can just kill him instead?

2) Scorching ray is traditionally seen as overpowered anyway, which blunts the effect of your comparison, AND

And why does it surprise you that the best spells to use metamagic on are the overpowered ones? Remember, we're comparing the metamagic spells to the most powerful spells of the next level anyway. If you want sucky spells with metamagic compared to sucky higher level spells, start a thread comparing empowered flaming sphere to shout. Of course the spells that, when metamagiced, compare to powerful higher level spells will be the powerful lower level spells.

3) We're back to talking about elemental damage vs. a non-elemental effect here. It's apples and oranges.

See stipulation 1 above. But it's still apples to apples if you're talking "nasty things with no save that I can do to an enemy with a 4th level slot and a ranged touch attack." And that's the way a wizard preparing spells has to look at it. It may not be as precise as we would like but both of them would be competing for the fourth level slot. And I can see a lot of cases where a wizard would rather have the empowered scorching ray.

Again, I see this more as a problem with scorching ray. More to the point, however, this is elemental damage (easily resistable) vs. the least resistable attack form in the books, AND you're using the absolute border case here; disintegrate scales WAY up from 11th level, whereas scorching ray does not.

Disintegrate scales up rather rapidly, but so do enemy fort saves. By the time it does 40d6 in theory, it will really do 5d6 95% of the time. About the only things disintegrate has going for it are its nonresistability (and, let's face it, a maximized scorching ray vs. fire resist 20 (unusually high for 3.5 monsters) is in the same ballpark as disintegrate vs. a successful save.

If you go into Complete Arcane, empowered force orb fares quite well against disintegrate too. (And maximized cold orb beats Polar Ray with one hand tied behind it's back at one level lower...then again, the ability to beat a decripit loser like Polar Ray is nothing to brag about).

Again with scorching ray. Can you use at least ONE other example of a suitable spell?

Sure. (If you read through the examples again, you'll see shocking grasp and fireball both discussed and Ray of Enfeeblement alluded to). But Scorching Ray is a convenient example because it's a good choice to metamagic throughout almost all of a character's career.

A brief primer on the spells to use metamagic on:
1. Magic missile (quicken, empower, twin), ray of enfeeblement (quicken, empower, split ray), all of the lesser orb spells (quicken, empower, twin, maximize), fist of stone (quicken--for odd builds like Eldritch Knight, Spellsword or Enlightened Fist), true strike (quicken, repeat), charm person (extend, still, silent, heighten)
2. Scorching ray (quicken, empower, maximize, twin), shatter (quicken--useful in some cases), false life (empower, extend), touch of idiocy (quicken), see invisibility (extend), Whirling Blade (quicken), detect thoughts (still and silent)
3. Fireball (empower, sculpt, maximize), lightning bolt (empower, sculpt, maximize), vampiric touch (empower, maximize, quicken), greater magic weapon (chain, extend), dispel magic (chaiin, repeat), suggestion (still and silent), heroism (extend), magic circle vs. alignment (extend)
4. Envervation (repeat, split ray, twin, empower, quicken), all of the energy orb spells (empower, maximize, quicken, repeat, twin), charm monster (still, silent, extend), dimensional anchor (quicken), assay resistance (chain--I think the target descriptor allows this)
5. Cone of cold (empower, sculpt, maximize), overland flight (extend), energy buffer (extend), firebrand (empower, maximize), wall of force (quicken), dominate person (still, silent, extend)
6. contingency (extend), chain lightning (empower, maximize), greater dispelling (sculpt, chain), disintegrate (empower--if you like it to begin with--I don't), anti magic field (sculpt)
7. delayed blast fireball (empower, sculpt), repulsion (sculpt)

I'm sure there are a lot more, but that's a pretty good list off the top of my head.

Otherwise, this sort of comparison tends to make me worry about scorching ray, NOT think metamagic is better. And again, we're back at apples and oranges. For a 9th-level spell, I have my choice of gate, time stop, and power word kill; for those options, is the ability to inflict 144 points of elemental damage to one target that requires a ranged touch attack worth it? Hardly.

Sure. I'm not saying that metamagic spells are always better than all spells of any given level. Otherwise everyone would always take metamagic feats. However, they do create spells that are better than a lot of the competing spells at any given level. (A twinned enervation, for instance, is strictly superior to energy drain since it takes an 8th level slot). And there are times when you might want to inflict 144 points of elemental damage with no save rather than (gate) blowing lots of xp and possibly placing yourself in an outsider's debt, (time stop) blowing a 9th level slot to cast a bunch of lower level spells from a limited selection more quickly, or (power word kill) accomplishing nothing because your enemy still has as many hit points as a 10th level fighter. If you want single target damage with a 9th level spell, you'll get better results with metamagic than with anything else.