D&D 5E What's wrong with the psion in UA mystic 3

Coroc

Hero
Especially since the immortal, avatar and awakened subclasses fit perfectly to emulate a Psion (Metabolic, Kinetic and Telepath ) similar to the 2e Darksun class?

I know it might have been discussed before, but i wanted to start a counterthread to @WayOfTheFourElements thread and his- quite resonable- sorcerer quick fix for the missing psion. For all those who want a more HC solution, what is wrong with said UA resolve? I never got any info on that other than the polls for it were not good.
 

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M_Natas

Hero
I have this mystic in the game I DM. The mystic is way overpowered. I would say it put outs double the damage any other character does (at the same level - all are lvl. 7 now). This campaign started as a One-Shot so I allowed UA Stuff, than we just kept going.
 

Sir Brennen

Legend
I have this mystic in the game I DM. The mystic is way overpowered. I would say it put outs double the damage any other character does (at the same level - all are lvl. 7 now). This campaign started as a One-Shot so I allowed UA Stuff, than we just kept going.
Same here. Running Princes of the Apocalypse and allowed a player to try it out. He basically recreated a 4E "sticky" fighter. Even the player acknowledged it's overpowered compared to the rest of the party.
 


Undrave

Legend
Especially since the immortal, avatar and awakened subclasses fit perfectly to emulate a Psion (Metabolic, Kinetic and Telepath ) similar to the 2e Darksun class?

I know it might have been discussed before, but i wanted to start a counterthread to @WayOfTheFourElements thread and his- quite resonable- sorcerer quick fix for the missing psion. For all those who want a more HC solution, what is wrong with said UA resolve? I never got any info on that other than the polls for it were not good.

It did too many things at once too well. It was like having a single class where its subclass were Wizard, Cleric and Fighter.

It was also ridiculously big, like 90 pages long?! It was like printing the entire Spell section of the PHB with the Wizard.

It was too much to learn, could do everything, and was too strong.

If they had broken it down into multiple classes it might have worked?
 

It did too many things at once too well. It was like having a single class where its subclass were Wizard, Cleric and Fighter.

It was also ridiculously big, like 90 pages long?! It was like printing the entire Spell section of the PHB with the Wizard.

It was too much to learn, could do everything, and was too strong.

If they had broken it down into multiple classes it might have worked?

Not really. Making 5 new classes within the class/subclass structure means that you will need to fill a lot of space.
Probably the subclasses don't have enough space in 5e is the problem. Otherwise you could have a very barebone class with very flashed out subclasses. In 6e or 5.5 it might be possible to reorganize a bit. That way you might be able to have even less base classes.
 

Undrave

Legend
Not really. Making 5 new classes within the class/subclass structure means that you will need to fill a lot of space.
Probably the subclasses don't have enough space in 5e is the problem. Otherwise you could have a very barebone class with very flashed out subclasses. In 6e or 5.5 it might be possible to reorganize a bit. That way you might be able to have even less base classes.

Please no. You cram too much into a single class and it becomes useless as a presentation tool. Too many things to absorb to choose what to play, too many things to balance and a lack of identity.

We don't need less base class with vague definitions, we need more classes that are more narrow and easier to explain.

anyway, my point was the 'Mystic' wasn't anything. It was a bunch of full classes that used Psionic all put under the same umbrella for no reason.
 

NotAYakk

Legend
Its level 1-10 power curve is too steep, like a combo melee+caster; then its 11-20 power curve flattens, like a melee.

(Here, "melee" I mean "uses weapons for combat power", and "caster" I mean "uses spellcasting engine for combat power").

Psychic Focus is a floating decent feature, plus a channel-divinity thing.
Psi Points, at lower levels, is full caster spell points.

Then you have features like Mystical Recovery / Consumptive Power / Telepathy / etc. Which are solid.

Then you look at each discipline. Each of them is about half to 1/3 of a class's worth of abilities, and you have 5 of them by level 5.

While someone else needs to Paladin 2 to get smite, you just burn one of your 5 disciplines and and get psychic smite that is 80% as good. Or get a discipline that, starting at level 9, lets you cast a 5th level spell to let almost all of your allies make a full attack.

Post 10, what you get is overlapping concentration as a replacement for 6th+ level spells. So no new mechanics. So in the back 10 (L 11-20), while you start from a high point (with like 3 classes worth of features welded together, all level 10), you don't scale like a full caster after it.

---

Design wise, the problem with the super-scaling abilities is that they lack some of the twists of spells.

Like, fireball -- great damage spell, often annoying to use. Your alternative is scorching ray, which does less damage often even on a single target, so sometimes you'll use it when it isn't optimal.

With a Mystic, this only happens if the Mystic didn't pick the other option. The damage abilities all scale per point spent.

They scale a bit too fast and stack too much.

As an example, inflict wounds does 2d10+1d10 per spell level. Beastial claws does 1d10 per PP. At level 1, wounds is 3d10 vs 1d10.

At level 1 it is 3d10 vs 2d10
At level 3 it is 4d10 vs 3d10
At level 5 it is 5d10 vs 5d10
At level 7 it is 6d10 vs 6d10
At level 9 it is 7d10 vs 7d10.

Looks fine, right?

Then you break it. You use a bonus action to Brute Strike (+1d6 per PP) before attacking, and on a hit also burn Knock back (+1d6 per PP).

Your tap is now 12.5 damage for 3 PP.
L 3: 37.5
L5: 62.5
L7: 75
L9: 87.5

And maybe you mix in another 1d8 by using the animate weapon instead of claws (1d8 damage class feature), and you have giant growth up for +2d6 per swing.

So at level 9 you can make a 99 damage strike.

And that wasn't me looking up broken combos, but just doing a quick "how hard can you hit with these abilities" while writing this post.

Now you did burn a lot of PP to do this. But you also have efficient options beyond this kind of nova.
 

Please no. You cram too much into a single class and it becomes useless as a presentation tool. Too many things to absorb to choose what to play, too many things to balance and a lack of identity.

We don't need less base class with vague definitions, we need more classes that are more narrow and easier to explain.

anyway, my point was the 'Mystic' wasn't anything. It was a bunch of full classes that used Psionic all put under the same umbrella for no reason.

In 2e rangers and paladins fell under warrior.
The question is how do you want to group classes. I think under the current rules it is the best to have one Psion class AND psionic subclasses for other classes. The psion can have 6 subclasses, one for each discipline. Psychic warrior should be a fighter subclass, psi blade a rogue one.

If you want more psionics in the rogue, maybe an alternate psionic feature instead of sneak attack would come in handy. You can easily replace it with once per turn, add 1d4 psychic damage to an attack. Same progression as sneak attack. It is more reliable than sneak attack, but deals lower max damage.
 

Undrave

Legend
The question is how do you want to group classes. I think under the current rules it is the best to have one Psion class AND psionic subclasses for other classes. The psion can have 6 subclasses, one for each discipline. Psychic warrior should be a fighter subclass, psi blade a rogue one.

agreed. the Mystic was trying to be EVERY type of Psionic classes at once instead of being the more caster type.
 

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