D&D 5E What's wrong with this psion?

[jmartkdr2]

I am not referring to the rules, I'm referring to the concepts.

It is just confused design to needlessly have multiple different ways to do the same basic thing. Like barbarians and fighters don't have completely different mechanics for hitting things with weapons.

And the concepts are distinct - psions do not engage in "casting spells". Casting spells isn't just doing something supernatural - it's using words, gestures, runes, etc to cause something supernatural to happen. Psions just will it to happen.

The result might be the same, but a better analogy would be fighters and monks - monks don't use weapons, so they have Martial Arts to get the same result. Psions should be about that much different from spellcasting.

 

[WayOfTheFourElements]

Let me see if I understand you:

Okay, so in your world, are psionics different form magic?

If yes, then of course you would have the mechanics reflect that. Somehow - the details don't matter. But the fluff say they are different, so the rules are different. Is that what you mean?

Yes. Mike's Book of Suggestions did the heavy lifting. I can play jazz on top of it. Wonderful.

And your dullard comment wasn't in response to wanting interesting characters - it was about wanting mechanically distinct characters.

Dullards was in reference to those who assert me mechanically distinction = character distinction

 

[Crimson Longinus]

And the concepts are distinct - psions do not engage in "casting spells". Casting spells isn't just doing something supernatural - it's using words, gestures, runes, etc to cause something supernatural to happen. Psions just will it to happen.

So what? All that literally needs a feature that lets them eschew the components.

The result might be the same, but a better analogy would be fighters and monks - monks don't use weapons, so they have Martial Arts to get the same result. Psions should be about that much different from spellcasting.

And those martial arts use the same combat rules than everyone else.

 

[jmartkdr2]

Yes. Mike's Book of Suggestions did the heavy lifting. I can play jazz on top of it. Wonderful.



Dullards was in reference to those who assert me mechanically distinction = character distinction

Okay, then I don't see why you would have an issue with people wanting a psion class - No matter how hard you play a clarinet, it will never sound like a trumpet.

 

[jmartkdr2]

So what? All that literally needs a feature that lets them eschew the components.


And those martial arts use the same combat rules than everyone else.

Needs? I guess.

But I don't see a value to a minimum viable product here - psionics is a different enough concept to support a new class. Heck, if sorcerers are distinct enough from wizards to be a new class, then psions absolutely should be. The only reason we don't have one is because they want the mechanics to win a popularity contest first, which won't happen.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Needs? I guess.

But I don't see a value to a minimum viable product here - psionics is a different enough concept to support a new class. Heck, if sorcerers are distinct enough from wizards to be a new class, then psions absolutely should be. The only reason we don't have one is because they want the mechanics to win a popularity contest first, which won't happen.

Sorcerers shouldn't be a separate class either. But yeah, psions could be, but aren't. And the psionic sorcerer will represent one just fine.

 

[Minigiant]

The result might be the same, but a better analogy would be fighters and monks - monks don't use weapons, so they have Martial Arts to get the same result. Psions should be about that much different from spellcasting

Fighter and monk relationship is similar to the wizard/sorcerer and psion one.

Basically powering the same effects with different mechanics and flavor.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

What makes this character not a psion?

Human 9th Level Psionic Soul Sorcerer
Cantrips: Friends, Mage Hand, Message, Mind Sliver, Minor Illusion
1st Level: Charm Person, Id Insinuation
2nd Level: Detect Thoughts, Hold Person, Levitate
3rd Level: Fear, Psionnic Blast
4th Level: Confusion, Ego Whip
5th Level: Dominate Person

Metamagic: Subtle Spell, Heightened Spell

For me, there are only two deal-breaker elements there that make it absolutely disqualified from being a psion:
1) The components
2) Charisma instead of Intelligence as their casting ability

Due to the way 5e works, and the fact that sorcerers get their subclass at 1st level, they could make a sorcerer subclass that says, "your spells don't require verbal, somatic, or material componets" right at 1st level. It would be trickier to say, "Your spellcasting ability uses Intelligence rather than Charisma", since subclasses only add features to the base class, they never replace them. Perhaps the feature could be "When you cast a spell, you can choose to use Intelligence rather than Charisma as your spellcasting ability", but I'm not comfortable with Charisma even being an option, and you just can't remove it in 5e design parameters. Perhaps they could make it so that you are incentivized for using Intelligence rather than Charisma. "When you cast a spell, you can choose to use Intelligence rather than Charisma as your spellcasting ability. Starting at 2nd level, when you do so you regain sorcery points equal to half the level of the spell slot used (minimum 1)." Or something cool like that.

There are plenty of other elements I would like to see in a psion (some quite strongly), but those are the only real deal-breakers in the Psionic Soul Sorcerer. There are a lot of different opinions, and some other people would require more changes for it not to be a deal-breaker, but I think you might be surprised how many people's only true deal-breakers are the same as mine.

EDIT: I also realized that the sorcerer's saving throw proficiencies are problematic. We'd need something like, "When you finish a long rest, you can choose to trade one or both of your saving throw proficiencies for another one. You can trade Charisma for Intelligence, and you can trade Constitution for Wisdom. You can switch these saving throws again each long rest."

 

[Crimson Longinus]

For me, there are only two deal-breaker elements there that make it absolutely disqualified from being a psion:
1) The components
2) Charisma instead of Intelligence as their casting ability

Due to the way 5e works, and the fact that sorcerers get their subclass at 1st level, they could make a sorcerer subclass that says, "your spells don't require verbal, somatic, or material componets" right at 1st level. It would be trickier to say, "Your spellcasting ability uses Intelligence rather than Charisma", since subclasses only add features to the base class, they never replace them. Perhaps the feature could be "When you cast a spell, you can choose to use Intelligence rather than Charisma as your spellcasting ability", but I'm not comfortable with Charisma even being an option, and you just can't remove it in 5e design parameters. Perhaps they could make it so that you are incentivized for using Intelligence rather than Charisma. "When you cast a spell, you can choose to use Intelligence rather than Charisma as your spellcasting ability. Starting at 2nd level, when you do so you regain sorcery points equal to half the level of the spell slot used (minimum 1)." Or something cool like that.

There are plenty of other elements I would like to see in a psion (some quite strongly), but those are the only real deal-breakers in the Psionic Soul Sorcerer. There are a lot of different opinions, and some other people would require more changes for it not to be a deal-breaker, but I think you might be surprised how many people's only true deal-breakers are the same as mine.

Why would they even use intelligence? If the fluff is that they use some sort of inner mental strength to achieve the psionic effects, then certainly either wisdom are charisma are better fits?

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Why would they even use intelligence? If the fluff is that they use some sort of inner mental strength to achieve the psionic effects, then certainly either wisdom are charisma are better fits?

Wisdom isn't a horrible fit, but Charisma just isn't part of the traditional identity. The sorts of mental power they use has traditionally been based on Intelligence. It's possible to make the sort of feature that I was suggesting provide different bonuses depending on whether you use Intelligence or Charisma. In that case, a Charisma-based build would represent a Wilder-themed character, and an Intelligence-based build would represent a Psion-themed character.