What's Wrong with Virtual Tabletop Play?

[Merkuri]

...if I'm going to play an online RP game via my PC I'd like it to take advantage of all the things my PC can do such as sound and graphics (and complex maths ) - so I'd play Neverwintwer Nights or a similar game by choice.

See, games like NWN with graphics break my immersion in the game. I'd much prefer text-based games. No matter how many cute or awesome animations they add to a character's image on the screen, there will always be something it can't do.

I remember somebody a while ago described on these boards how their party subdued a demon-posessed dog by scratching it so that its leg thumped uncontrollably. You can't do that in NWN. No way. Text chat, though, gives you the freedom to do anything you can put into words, and lets your imagination supply the graphics, the same as with tabletop.

I've never had a real live tabletop group, so virtual tabletops are all I have. I can't really compare the virtual experience to the real one because I have so little experience with the latter, but I must say that online gaming is much much better than nothing.

 

[crazy_cat]

See, games like NWN with graphics break my immersion in the game. I'd much prefer text-based games. No matter how many cute or awesome animations they add to a character's image on the screen, there will always be something it can't do.
*snip*

Point taken - some people don't like graphics etc. Some do however.

Just to clarify - I'm referring only to 100% live DM'd NWN play - with a real person (or people) controlling all NPCs, Monsters and environmental effects. I hated single player NWN and scripted multiplayer NWN and won't play it.

With live DM'd you get immersive play and fully interactive NPCs etc in realtime, as you would I assume over a chat based RPG, and what I liked in addition was the visuals, sound, and FX and the potential flexibility the engine allowed when coupled with player and DM imagination. In live DM'd play in NWN if the game engine can't cope we woudl just go to text based play/RP until that particular issue/scene was resolved.

In the example you gave about a dog I suspect we would have dealt with it in much the same way - a player would send a tell to the DM explaining the plan, the DM would respond and possess the dog and other NPCs as necessary to RP the situation, where we couldn't get our avatars to perform the correct animation we would speak them - *edges closer to the dog, holding out one hand open hoping the dog will sniff or lick it* - the DM and all other PCs respond as necessary to this as though they are seeing it. Easy.

I was, I admit, very lucky in the other players/DMs I found online (by much trial and error) as we had games and adventures that I still remember years later - but these abiding good memories are due to the flexibility and quality of the players and our ability to work with, and where necessary beyond or outside the game engine I suspect, rather than any specific superiority of the medium the game was played in.

End of the days its personal prefernce and what gaming you can get. If you like VTT good on you, I like NWN more and overall I prefer face to face tabletop gaming.

I've never (fortunately) been limited in the choice of game available to me, and I hope I never am, but if the choice I faced ws no gaming or VTT, I'm fairly sure I'd take VTT.

 

[Merkuri]

In live DM'd play in NWN if the game engine can't cope we woudl just go to text based play/RP until that particular issue/scene was resolved.

But the characters in the game are sitting there, staring blankly at each other while you text out what you are doing. That is what irked me about NWN. If the 3d characters are just sitting there, why bother with them at all? Leave it all up to the imagination. If a medium is flawed like that I'd rather just go back to something I know works in all cases.

But that's the way I feel about it. If you like it, go for it.

 

[Mercule]

I don't mind PBEM. I prefer tabletop, but am plenty willing to do PBEM games.

What I don't like is the idea of a chat game, where everyone logs in at the same time and plays for a few hours, "live". Chat just seems like a rather poor means of communication. It basically suffers all the negatives of both tabletop (think fast or keep people waiting, have to have all your referrence materials right at hand, etc.) and PBEM (no body language, harder to draw on the comraderie, difficult to share resources and props, etc.) without gaining any of the benefits.

If the only mode of playing D&D available to me was a virtual tabletop or chat, I wouldn't even bother. I could get a better RPG fix from my PS2, and I don't even play EQ/WOW/COH.

 

[DonTadow]

Point taken - some people don't like graphics etc. Some do however.

Just to clarify - I'm referring only to 100% live DM'd NWN play - with a real person (or people) controlling all NPCs, Monsters and environmental effects. I hated single player NWN and scripted multiplayer NWN and won't play it.

With live DM'd you get immersive play and fully interactive NPCs etc in realtime, as you would I assume over a chat based RPG, and what I liked in addition was the visuals, sound, and FX and the potential flexibility the engine allowed when coupled with player and DM imagination. In live DM'd play in NWN if the game engine can't cope we woudl just go to text based play/RP until that particular issue/scene was resolved.

In the example you gave about a dog I suspect we would have dealt with it in much the same way - a player would send a tell to the DM explaining the plan, the DM would respond and possess the dog and other NPCs as necessary to RP the situation, where we couldn't get our avatars to perform the correct animation we would speak them - *edges closer to the dog, holding out one hand open hoping the dog will sniff or lick it* - the DM and all other PCs respond as necessary to this as though they are seeing it. Easy.

I was, I admit, very lucky in the other players/DMs I found online (by much trial and error) as we had games and adventures that I still remember years later - but these abiding good memories are due to the flexibility and quality of the players and our ability to work with, and where necessary beyond or outside the game engine I suspect, rather than any specific superiority of the medium the game was played in.

End of the days its personal prefernce and what gaming you can get. If you like VTT good on you, I like NWN more and overall I prefer face to face tabletop gaming.

I've never (fortunately) been limited in the choice of game available to me, and I hope I never am, but if the choice I faced ws no gaming or VTT, I'm fairly sure I'd take VTT.

My biggest concern with running an ongoing nwn2 campaign is preparation time ability and on the fly immersion. How long does it take to prepare one session in nwn2. For me, it took too long to get my tests set up for one scene.

Last night, the pcs summoned a flying barge and dropped it on top of the enemies experimental flag airship in the middle of a heated combat. It seems that the more you want to role playing with online games, the more tedious preparation becomes.

 

[crazy_cat]

My biggest concern with running an ongoing nwn2 campaign is preparation time ability and on the fly immersion. How long does it take to prepare one session in nwn2. For me, it took too long to get my tests set up for one scene.

Last night, the pcs summoned a flying barge and dropped it on top of the enemies experimental flag airship in the middle of a heated combat. It seems that the more you want to role playing with online games, the more tedious preparation becomes.

I couldn't tell you how long it takes to prep a NWN2 adventure session as I played the game for about 3 hours in total before giving up on it since it is a huge step backwards IMHO from what NWN was.

For NWN I know prep depends on what you want - we played in a sandbox type world - lots of areas and scenery - lots of NPCs and monsters designed - but no scripts and pre placed plots, and preparation whilst it took a while initially then allowed for pretty open ended play within the created areas. All NPCs were posessed and played live by the DM, and if the DM needed to slow us down whilst moving ahead to set up an area then after a quick tell one of the PCs would normally cover for him/her with a bit of inane RP based chat to keep us all occupied (be it Snakes illiterate PC trying to read a roadsign, Lances Swashbuckler posing and modelling his newest rapier, Orbs mage bemoaning our lack of fine provisions or my moody brawler practising his swordplay)

I suppose its horses for courses really - I loved NWN, I dislike NWN2 and I've no interest in trying VTT play as I've got NWN to fall back on if PC based gaming becomes necessary.

 

[Cerebral Paladin]

I play in a regular VOIP D&D game-- no virtual table top, just Skype. For us, it's clearly inferior to a regular face-to-face game, but we still have a lot of fun. I would compare it to the difference between seeing friends face-to-face and talking on the phone. I'd always rather get together with my friends, but they are far-flung and I don't get to see many of them very often. So phone calls are an important second-best. In the same way, a VOIP game with one of my favorite gamemasters and some close friends who I love playing with is distinctly inferior to playing with them in person, but a lot better than only playing with them once or twice a year, which was the situation before we started the Skype game.

 

[Jedi_Solo]

I wouldn't call myself rabidly opposed, just completely uninterested. It's not that I'm technically challenged or living in the stone age, either (I write software for a living). I have no problem with someone else playing online -- if you enjoy it, that's great. I won't be doing it, though, for the following reasons:

- I prefer face-to-face social interaction: sitting around the table, sharing snacks, etc. That's true of role-playing in particular, but it's also true as a general rule. I'd rather go have coffee with someone rather than chat on the phone, for example.

- If I can't role-play around a table (for lack of players, for example), I'd rather do something else where I can maximize my enjoyment, instead of "settling for" a lower-quality (IMO) role-playing experience. Role-playing is only one of my options for recreation, not something I absolutely must find a way to do. In reality though, I don't find lack of players to be a problem, so it's not an issue.

- I spend all day sitting at a computer. The last thing I want is more computer time -- especially hours of it.

- If I *am* going to play a game on the computer, I'd rather play something that was designed for a computer and that takes advantage of everything a computer has to offer.

I think this is just one of those things that boils down to preference, so arguing over the particulars, making cases for online play being "just as good (or even better)," etc. is kind of pointless, IMO.

What Jurament said - including the part about me being a software writer.

 

[Matchstick]

I play in a regular VOIP D&D game-- no virtual table top, just Skype. For us, it's clearly inferior to a regular face-to-face game, but we still have a lot of fun. I would compare it to the difference between seeing friends face-to-face and talking on the phone. I'd always rather get together with my friends, but they are far-flung and I don't get to see many of them very often. So phone calls are an important second-best. In the same way, a VOIP game with one of my favorite gamemasters and some close friends who I love playing with is distinctly inferior to playing with them in person, but a lot better than only playing with them once or twice a year, which was the situation before we started the Skype game.

"Me too"

That's a great way to descibe it, comparing in person to telephone. Sure, given the choice I would choose tabletop, but using Teamspeak V0IP and Fantasy Grounds means that I can get together and game with my friends cross country more than once a year at GenCon. Games are fairly easy to prepare for. We also find that we're far more focussed on gaming when we're gaming over the internet, as compared to when we tabletop.

And you know, even though I'm working at a computer 40 hours a week, I'm willing to look at a computer screen on my off hours if it means hanging (virtually) with old friends and having fun.

Anything that can help keep old friends together, whether gaming related or not, despite real life and distance is something to be encouraged, not disparaged.

 

[Arashi Ravenblade]

Im not into online RPG's through chat or anything else. However, if I had to move I would try and invest in a microphone for the computer and game that way with some sort of conference program. Though as it sits I wont have to be worrying about that anytime soon, my family couldnt move if we wanted to and my friends (at least the gaming ones are) are tied to Circleville as much as I am.