D&D 5E What's your lowest CR legendary monster?

[Sacrosanct]

I've done CR 6 legendaries but nothing lower. I think my issue is that legendary monsters aren't just about mechanics, its got a certain "something something" flavorwise. These are the monsters of legend and myth, it seems weird that it would only be a challenge for 4 people right out of boot camp.

I think it's important to remember that lvl 1 PCs are heroes, significantly more powerful than the average person. So when you start looking at all those characters from folklore and mythology, many of them don't do much more than a low-level PC, and the legendary creatures they defeated in those stories were thus defeated by lower level PC in the D&D context.

If you look at my examples above, one is an NPC personality and unique, thus could be a legendary creature (certainly when compared to other goblins), and the other is a legendary horse from mythology. Nothing about that horse in mythology suggests that it would be able to take on and defeat something like a giant or dragon, but it's still considered legendary.

YMMV of course.

 

[NotAYakk]

AC 11
HP 44
Damage immunities: +75% HP (77) from immune to mundane weapons in T1.
LR: 3 (+30)
Action budget:
+4/4 damage (trivial)
Save DCs: +6 to-hit equivalent
Gaze: pretty solid. But effectively once. I'll value it at ... 30 damage.
Reaction: Call it 10 damage per round.
Legendary: Call it 4 damage per legendary action (x3 per round, so 12).

DPR: 26*2+30+16 = 98 over 3 rounds, so 32ish per round.
AC: 11
HP: 107

HP: CR 3
DPR/actions: CR 4
ATK/SAVE: +1 over expected
AC: -2 under expected

Total CR: CR 3.

I mean, I'm not sure how that is CR 1, unless you didn't budget in the legendary stuff.

 

[the Jester]

I've done CR 6 legendaries but nothing lower. I think my issue is that legendary monsters aren't just about mechanics, its got a certain "something something" flavorwise. These are the monsters of legend and myth, it seems weird that it would only be a challenge for 4 people right out of boot camp.

The thing is, if you look at him, you can suss out the guy's story. He's got lower physical stats that a normal jackalwere, and he lacks both Pack Tactics and Keen Senses- because he's an old man. His mental powers- his gaze- has become mightier with time and reflection. He is neutral, not evil like most jackalweres; he is basically no threat to those who don't threaten him. He has become a legend not because he's a mighty opponent but because he has become an ascetic similar to the early Christian ascetics- he may not live on top of a pole, but he's withdrawn from others and sought enlightenment. He's a holy man. The tales of him spread far and wide despite him renouncing (or at least not excelling in) violence.

 

[the Jester]

First, let me just say that I always appreciate it when someone gives me their take on evaluating the CR of a monster with weird abilities like this.

AC 11
HP 44
Damage immunities: +75% HP (77) from immune to mundane weapons in T1.
LR: 3 (+30)
Action budget:
+4/4 damage (trivial)
Save DCs: +6 to-hit equivalent
Gaze: pretty solid. But effectively once. I'll value it at ... 30 damage.

I didn't value it at anywhere near that. In fact, since it doesn't do damage or put anyone to sleep unless you fail by 5, I'm pretty sure I valued it at 0 for damage, but maybe like a +1 AC bonus? I'm honestly not 100% sure.

Reaction: Call it 10 damage per round.

I don't honestly remember what I valued it at, but I think it was less than 10. I'm going to say 6.

Legendary: Call it 4 damage per legendary action (x3 per round, so 12).

DPR: 26*2+30+16 = 98 over 3 rounds, so 32ish per round.
AC: 11
HP: 107

HP: CR 3
DPR/actions: CR 4
ATK/SAVE: +1 over expected
AC: -2 under expected

Total CR: CR 3.

I mean, I'm not sure how that is CR 1, unless you didn't budget in the legendary stuff.

There's some numbers that you're using that seem a little wonky. So using my valuation for the gaze- I suspect that's where the majority of the difference lies-

Effective AC 11 + 1 for gaze = 12
Effective hp: 44 x 2 for damage immunities = 88; add 30 for legendary resistance = 108; add 27 for legendary actions = 135. (I'm using the DMG rules here. I'm not sure where you got the x1.75.)
This yields a defensive CR of 3.

Effective damage output per round: 4 (scimitar) + 6 (You're Only Hurting Yourself) = 10.
Effective attack bonus: +4
So I get an offensive CR of 1... overall CR 2. Looks like I missed something, probably on the defensive side, my first time around.

***

The thing about this guy is that he's not there to hurt anyone. He barely does any damage, and you can avoid his most powerful abilities by not attacking him. He is fairly elusive, and he's probably there to teach some lesson or other to travelers. He's very hard to pin down- I can see scenarios involving catching him being very challenging.

 

[dave2008]

First, let me just say that I always appreciate it when someone gives me their take on evaluating the CR of a monster with weird abilities like this.

I didn't value it at anywhere near that. In fact, since it doesn't do damage or put anyone to sleep unless you fail by 5, I'm pretty sure I valued it at 0 for damage, but maybe like a +1 AC bonus? I'm honestly not 100% sure.

I don't honestly remember what I valued it at, but I think it was less than 10. I'm going to say 6.

There's some numbers that you're using that seem a little wonky. So using my valuation for the gaze- I suspect that's where the majority of the difference lies-

Effective AC 11 + 1 for gaze = 12
Effective hp: 44 x 2 for damage immunities = 88; add 30 for legendary resistance = 108; add 27 for legendary actions = 135. (I'm using the DMG rules here. I'm not sure where you got the x1.75.)
This yields a defensive CR of 3.

Effective damage output per round: 4 (scimitar) + 6 (You're Only Hurting Yourself) = 10.
Effective attack bonus: +4
So I get an offensive CR of 1... overall CR 2. Looks like I missed something, probably on the defensive side, my first time around.

***

The thing about this guy is that he's not there to hurt anyone. He barely does any damage, and you can avoid his most powerful abilities by not attacking him. He is fairly elusive, and he's probably there to teach some lesson or other to travelers. He's very hard to pin down- I can see scenarios involving catching him being very challenging.

CR 2 seems about right to me too. I think @NotAYakk inflated some assumptions, but I have run the numbers myself.

 

[NotAYakk]

Someone is going to hit him. Then it is decent accuracy save for half. It is rather nasty. It will deal 22-44+ damage before the monster is defeated, next to no way to avoid it.(ok shocking grasp)

I valued that massive aoe as a strong 3rd level spell. I agree it ain't damage.

 

[dave2008]

Personally I am a bit mixed on low level "legendary" monsters. In general I agree with @Stalker0 that they should be a bit special and probably higher level. So for me around CR 5 is probably as low as I want to go, and even then only rarely. I think level 10 is a good time to introduce them. Though, I do like the idea of adding legendary actions that just make a monster more "slippery" as @the Jester suggested. I could see legendary actions just providing escape / movement / hiding options. Of course you could probably do this with reactions too.

 

[dave2008]

Someone is going to hit him. Then it is decent accuracy save for half. It is rather nasty. It will deal 22-44+ damage before the monster is defeated, next to no way to avoid it.(ok shocking grasp)

I valued that massive aoe as a strong 3rd level spell. I agree it ain't damage.

That gaze is pretty tough. It said (save ends) which I assumed was a short cut for: a creature can make an additional save at the end of each its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success (is that correct @the Jester ?). If not, it is particularly nasty. You wouldn't be to difficult to tie up half the party for the duration of the encounter on the first round if there is no extra saves. Then the reaction is even more effective because a higher percentage of your attacks are being reflected back at you.

 

[the Jester]

That gaze is pretty tough. It said (save ends) which I assumed was a short cut for: a creature can make an additional save at the end of each its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success (is that correct @the Jester ?). If not, it is particularly nasty. You wouldn't be to difficult to tie up half the party for the duration of the encounter on the first round if there is no extra saves. Then the reaction is even more effective because a higher percentage of your attacks are being reflected back at you.

Yes, absolutely. It's an easy shorthand I use.

 

[the Jester]

This thread has underlined something interesting for me: I see CR and legendary as completely decoupled.