Whats your opinion on the Point Buy System

What is your opinion of the Point Buy stat selection system?

  • Fine as it stands

    Votes: 143 76.5%
  • Needs a minor change

    Votes: 25 13.4%
  • Scrap it and start again

    Votes: 19 10.2%

Henry said:
One of my problems with point buy is that I can look at a set of ability scores for a character and immediately tell if it is point-bought or not.

1. Over half of the stats end in even numbers.

2. No ability is below an 8.

3. One stat is a 16 or a 17, but none higher.

4. Two to three of the stats end in "break points" - a 15, 14, or an 8.
None of these things bother me at all. At least in my group while it's true we don't see many very low scores or odd scores there is still alot of diversity in ability scores beyond that. If a 14 and 15 dex are essentially identicle in game play, that "diversity" of having a mix of even and odd scores is phantom anyway. I realize there are some situations where a 15 is superior to a 14, but they are pretty rare. It seems more asthetic to me than anything else.

I guess thats why I prefer point buy so much over a rolling method. I see many, many disadvatages to rolling and most of the disadvantages of point buy others are pointing out simply do not seem like real disadvantages to me.

Edit: Well put kreynolds!:) That sums up many of my feeling on the subject very nicely.
 
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kreynolds said:


Its not that simple. Take these stats (7, 9, 8, 10, 11, 9), for example (which I have seen a lot from a coupe of the players in my group). Sometimes the dice just aren't on your side, and a suck character is a suck character. Yeah, you get out of it what you put into it, but by the same token, a character with crappy stats like that can't hold much to begin with. Roleplay is very important, I agree, but it means nothing if your character is lame at anything he/she does.

Yes, you can roll multiple sets of stats until you get one that you like, but I'd rather not waste the time. I use point-buy simply because its faster, and it lets you build the character that you want to play. When you have a lot more to work with, you can flesh out your character with roleplay even that much more. After all, a fighter that can't hit anything, hurt anything, or take any damage isn't a fighter, no matter how good your roleplaying abilities are.

Here's another good example why I don't like rolling for stats (myself or my players). What if the party could use a spellcaster? Well, if you end up with the stats above, it doesn't really matter. No matter how you arrange those stats, you're gonna be an awful spellcaster. So, what do you do? Roll again. And if those don't work out either? Roll again. During all this rolling, your fighter player over there is now wondering why he didn't get to roll as much as this spellcaster, and the only reason that this other guy is getting to roll for his abilities so much is simply because he needs to be able to cast spells, cause that's what the party's lacking...a spellcaster.

That's exactly why I adopted my method: roll once, build a point buy, take your pick. Lets you get a chance to get lucky, and if you don't gives you a decent PC. So far my group has split about 60-40 in favor of rolling.

But I play a wizard with 5,7,9,9,13,16 I've been told many times he's "unplayable." Somehow he's doing just fine.

PS
 


Storminator said:
But I play a wizard with 5,7,9,9,13,16 I've been told many times he's "unplayable."

First, he is unplayable, as you cannot cast spells with an Intelligence of 9.

Second, I play a fighter with 1,1,1,1,1,1...so there. :p ;)
 
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Here is a suggestion:

3d6 or 4d6 seven times. Keep 6 highest and add any missing points to make it equivalent to the number of points from point by chosen. It may set you highest po ssible score and your lowest possible. For example, if your lowest roll is a 10, you can't have an 8. If your highest is 13 and you already have 29 points, your highest score would be a 15, etc.

You may or may not subtract points to a character who has more than the number of points chosen.
 

A few replies to your comments. First, I'll admit my sample was pretty screwy and unscientific. It was built of three of my Living Greyhawk characters and a dozen or so others whose stats I could more or less remember from playing in their groups or helping them construct their characters.

The emphasis on physical over mental stats is not surprising considering that I appear to have remembered mostly fighters, clerics, and fighter/clerics. I've played with a number of sorcerors bards, rogues, and wizards but don't remember their stats.

That most of them were human is not surprising--in most 3e campaigns I've played in--point buy or otherwise, human has been the most popular race. (The only one without a human was an underwater campaign that didn't have humans as a playable race). The lack of elves and halflings was more because I don't remember any of their stats than because I don't play with many (although halfling is a less popular choice than other races; I think I'd rate the popularity of races: Human-Elf-Dwarf-Half orc-halfling-Half-elf-Gnome).

Similarly, that very few stats were under 8 is not surprising either. Even in non-point buy games I've played, very few characters ended up with 6's and 7's. While I've seen a good deal more 11s and 13s in non point buy games, the number of 6s and 7s isn't much higher.

By the same token, the emphasis on constitution is as much a function of D&D 3e as it is a function of point buy. Most players think of constitution as their second most important stat, if not their most important.

The same is true of moderate to low int scores for clerics, monks, and paladins. I've yet to see a campaign point, buy or otherwise, where any of these classes emphasized int.

For that matter, it's true of point spreads in general. If someone rolls 18 15 14 9 7 8, they're quite unlikely to play a monk or a paladin. They'll most likely play a fighter (leaving them in that order), barbarian, or wizard (trading the 18 and the 9). On the other hand, if someone rolls 15, 13, 14, 9, 13, 17 they're more likely to decide to play a paladin or a monk. In the same way, any character who rolls 9, 7, 10, 18, 11, 13 is likely to play a wizard or a cleric. (Probably cleric). D&D 3e encourages certain character classes to have certain attributes and that is not only reflected in point buy games but in rolled games as well. The difference is that in point buy games, people can play any character they want and in rolled games, the luck of the dice limits what's available to them.

The fact that the examples came from a 28 point system also exacerbated the issues you pointed out. Systems with more points encourage both higher power and allow for spending stat points less efficiently. My 32 point buy fighter/barbarian had 12's in int and wisdom. That's less likely to be the case with a 28 point buy character.

Celebrim said:
Most telling to me is this comment:

"But the characters themselves weren't too similar. He was focussed on reach weapon combat and my character was designed to smash things up with a Tralian hammer"

Clearly, character creation got off on if not on the wrong foot, then at least not on the foot that I'd want to start it on.

This is a thread about the mechanics of character generation. What do you expect me to say? "But his character was a Ying Hir tribesman driven by bloodlust to seek employment in the city of Coryan while my character was a young man who had recently discovered that the blood of the gods flowed in his veins and who felt his ancestor's rage come over him when he looked upon injustice." It sounds pretty but what's at issue is whether the character's mechanical similarity is as close as the stats would indicate--whether or not they were cut with the same cookie cutter. In that case, the fact that one character had EWP: Tralian Hammer, maxed out intimidate and had cross class ranks in sense motive and the other character had combat reflexes and dodge (or something else like that) and lots of wilderness lore is much more relevant than their dissimilar backstories.

If it's the word designed that you're taking issue with, you shouldn't. Whether you design the mechanics of a character first and come up with a backstory to fit them or write a backstory and design the mechanics of the character to fit it, there's an element of mechanical design that enters into character creation. If someone told me he was a Real Roleplayer because his barbarian who lived in the hills and fought trolls with his greatsword had one feat: skill focus basketweaving, I'd think he was a moron. The character ought to have power attack, weapon focus: greatsword, toughness, or dodge and mobility with that backstory and skillset. In other words, he ought to be designed to fight large creatures with reach and lots of hit points.
 


re

from what I can tell, it seems most of you don't like to play a character like Sir Launcelot, Conan, Aragorn, and other such archetypes.

Why are so many gamers into low-statted characters? I don't get it.


16-12-12-12-10-9

These are a slightly above average person with one good trait. Why do you want to play that in a fantasy roleplaying game?

That is what boggles me.

Honestly, rate those to real people. Even a real athlete whose strength, dex, and con would be much higher than this.

When I look at these stats I think: Townsfolk thrown into an adventure.

What if you were playing say the following concept: Knight trained from birth to fight and uphold the family honor on the field of battle.

Would you feel those stats would represent that well?

My biggest problem with point buy is that they try to sell me the idea that 32 points is Heroic and then they don't make their own NPC's that way.

Go add up Elminster or Drizzt base stats. They far exceed 32 points. The books I read have them as heroes of the land. I want to be a hero of the land to, not a hero sidekick.

Even Gary Gygax's best characters weren't made on 32 points. 32 Points is not literary fantasy heroic.

If they are going to require or include a point buy system, then maybe they should have a level of points where you can make heroic characters equivalent to the gameworlds heroic PC's.

I would be willing to bet that even DM's who make their own worlds have iconic characters who have much higher stats then a PC generated on 32 points. IMO, that is the wrong way to treat the PC's.
 

Err.. what makes you think that <various list of iconic heroes> aren't built with say 40 pts? 50 tops. 40 is greater than 32. So what. Doesn't mean your character is ultimately going to be less important than Character X. You can save the world as a 15 point character. You can be the protagonist of the story as a 15 point character.

40-45 points is about the most I would build an NPC with - and those would be as you said the famous people - sons of kings, heroes of renown, and so forth. Mostly such icons never seem to do anything. They just sit around and brood about thier problems. I don't really need more potant NPC's than that (between wishes and stat boosting items and improvement with levels, I could get virtually any stat for the NPC no matter what they started out with anyway). I don't personally believe they make humans much more advantaged than that. Certainly not in the typical low population fantasy world.

FR immediately struck me as some juvenile ego fantasy and turned me off immediately, so don't even bring it up to me as a standard to compete with. FR is dog:):):):). Worst fantasy setting ever published. Spelljammer was more creative, original, and well thought out (sad as that is to say). But I'll stop ranting before I really say something offensive.

I would rate stats like that to those to real people. I'd rate those stats as superior to 95% of the people I've ever met, maybe more so. And its not like I don't know a few high end of the talent scale people. My younger brother was senior class president, and two time heavyweight state wrestling champion. My wife has six NASA mission patches.

Remember, 10 is AVERAGE. Ten is not the low end. 50% of the population ought to be at 10 or less. If noone in your campaign ever has worse numbers than a 10, you probably do feel like 14 and 15 are 'average' stats - but then you've redifined 'average' haven't you.

Your seem to assume that you yourself are built with 30+ points, and therefore why heroes have to be built with 80 or something. I assume that I am a 25 point or so human (though really D&D just doesn't translate into reality well), and I've met a few 35 point ones, and I figure somewhere in there is the range of real heroes. Of course, all that arguement is silly. Go to GURPS if you want to try to model realities.

"What if you were playing say the following concept: Knight trained from birth to fight and uphold the family honor on the field of battle. Would you feel those stats would represent that well?"

Well, actually yes. I don't have as elevated expectations as you do apparantly. Getting more than one +1 bonus seems great to a 1st edition player.

Look, if you just have to get it out of your system, go ahead and play a campaign with 45 or 50 point characters or whatever you think is just boss. I've done it. Been there. It's the bloody same game, only you get more players stroking themselves about how k3wl their characters are _because of some NUMBER_ (I've got 228 h.p., huh huh), and the DM has to rachet up all the encounters a notch to keep it interesting - so you kill the dragon at 9th level instead of 12th. Big whoop.

If I had a dollar for every guy that has walked up to me and bragged about thier half-elven cambion vampire werefolf fighter-mage-thief with 21 dex, or thier dual scimitar welding drow elf whatever, I'd be living a life of leisure now.

Be Conan. Knock yourself out. It's fun to romp around for a while. After a while you will realize that Conan is Conan because he has no peers, and that such literary pretentions are even more pretentious in a RPG than they are in a fantasy novel. After a while you will realize that if you have all 18's and everyone you meet has all 14's (or 18's), then you are no better off than the guy who has all 14's who lives in a world where 10 is average.

And neither high stats or low stats is a gaurantee of heroism or interesting play, much less fun.

Errr rant off (blame it on me being tired)
 

I've used the point buy system the entire time we've played 3E and haven't had a single complaint yet.

Heroes are defined by their actions, not by their ability scores.
 

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