When an author kills characters...

[Kahuna Burger]

This has spoilers for Serenity, Buffy and ASoIaF, just so ya know....

In the Feast for Crows thread, Eric commented that he "likes it when an author kills of characters" because it makes him less certain of and more interested in the fates of the other characters. I've heard the same sort of thing said often about Martin. Similar comments were made in the Serenity thread, with more than one person saying that "Joss isn't afraid to kill his characters," sometimes citing Tara from Buffy as an example.

I find this idea interesting enough to pull out and talk about a bit. Wen do you think of it as the author killing off the characters, and how do you feel about it when it happens?

The thing for me is that if I feel that "the author" has killed a character (as I did in ASoIaF) I completely lose nterest in the rest of the story. Because my suspension of disbelief has been dealt a death blow, I don't care what will happen to the characters - I already know. "Whatever the author feels like" is whats going to happen.

Sure, obviously in the end thats the truth anyway. But I rank my enjoyment of stories (including TV, movies, comics, etc) based on how much I buy into the illusion that there is a reality to the characters that trancends the part we are shown. Shock deaths and gratuitously inexplicable changes of fortune shatter that illusion for me.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying that everything has to be perfect and roses for me to enjoy a story. When Tara was killed on Buffy, I was mad at Warren, and happy to see him get his somewhat gross just deserts. But when I read the Red Wedding scene in ASoIaF, I wasn't mad at the Freys. The Freys had ceased to exist as believable characters for me, so there was no point in it. I was annoyed at Martin for wasting the reading I'd already put in and somewhat cranky at my hubby for putting me on to the books when I had explicitly told him I didn't like that sort of story.

 

[Melkor Lord Of ALL!]

I loved the good guys dying in ASOIAF. It brings tragedy to this epic story, and reason to really hate the bad guys( or root for them! ). It will make the return of Starks so much more powerful.

With Jordan or Salvatore, it is boring because you know main characters are safe. And all Martin`s characters are so rich, no cartoony villains. There are vicious men and women worth rooting for. Lannisters are at least as cool as Starks.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

I loved the good guys dying in ASOIAF. It brings tragedy to this epic story, and reason to really hate the bad guys( or root for them! ). It will make the return of Starks so much more powerful.

With Jordan or Salvatore, it is boring because you know main characters are safe. And all Martin`s characters are so rich, no cartoony villains. There are vicious men and women worth rooting for. Lannisters are at least as cool as Starks.

Well, I don't read either of those two authors, so I can't comment on if you are correct or not. I will say I found Frey very cartoony and the red wedding only enforced that.

 

[Endur]

Spoilers Spoilers Spoilers Spoilers!!!

I think there is a difference between Tara's death in Buffy and Ned Stark's death in Game of Thrones.

I never thought of Tara as a main character in Buffy, so when she died, it felt like Joss just wanted to add a death in the family as a plot point. Death of a main character would have been Buffy, Giles, Xander, or Willow. Tara's death lets us see the villains as being particularly nasty and allows us to see Willow's character evolve.

In A Game of Thrones, Ned Stark is the main character of the first book. His death prepares us for the time of change more than anything else that happens in the first book. His death signifies the end of childhood for the Stark children. After he dies, they are forced to become adults.

 

[stevelabny]

i scanned the thread to make sure there wasnt any Feast for Crows spoiers, as I havent read the book yet. (So hopefully, thats still new enough to go behind spoiler tags). I will feel free to talk about the deaths already presented by KB though. (In Buffy and the first three ASOIAF books)

I agree with the general idea that the reason why Joss and George RR Martin are so good is because they do bad things to their characters. Joss said it best "I don't give the fans what they want, I give them what they NEED."

KB, you say that you can deal with Tara, but have a problem with the Red Wedding.
I've seen many Buffy fans completely lose all reason when it comes to Tara.

So I think this might have to do with just how much people like certain characters. I think people don't mind seeing characters that they deem secondary get killed off, but if one of their favorites bites it, suddenly they find a problem with it, sometimes even subconciously.

My question to you is WHY do you feel that the Red Wedding was author-forced but Tara's death wasn't ? Were you a big fan of Rob and Catelyn? How did you feel about Tara? If you got through Game of Thrones and Clash of Kings, what was so different about the Red Wedding that broke the disbelief for you?

In my own case, I thought some of the other deaths in ASOIAF were a bit sudden (Renly for one, Joff for another) as I thought both characters had potential, BUT I had already accepted that anybody could die at anytime. I've already accepted that most of my favorites in the series will die, and that the one character I despise might very well be the sole survivor. As long as the series stays well written, I can deal.

Firefly / Serenity is a perfect case for me of a character I like getting a perfect death scene. I always hope all my favorite fictional characters have a good death. For fictional characters, there is nothing better for than a good death.

Years ago, when I hated Wonder Man's death in Force Works #1, and it completely soured me to that book. Of course, we had JUST learned that Wonder Man was immortal, and Force Works was a brand new incarnation of Avengers West coast (so if the writers didn't want him there, they had plenty of other ways to write him out) so the whole idea seemed forced. (ha) Even knowing that Wonder Man would definitely return since he was "immortal', the idea still ticked me off. I'd like to think that such a ridiculous death of a character who wasn't one of my favorites would have bothered me just as much, but there's no way to know.
(But I also think comics are a slightly different landscape, since they are a shared playground, and I often feel a writer is being irresponisble to the shared universe he's playing in.)

When it comes to Buffy or Serenity or ASOIAF or any other tv show/ book / movie with ONE person's vision leading the way, i can't remember ever being quite so upset. Sure sometimes I would have gone another route, but I've never been so upset that I quit something over a character death.

The worst I can remember was when I felt that Riley was unceremoniously written out of Buffy due to rebound-boyfriend-negative-fan-reaction. I thought it was unfair, I thought it was done to cater to the audience, I thought it was handled poorly, and I still continued watching and loving the show.

 

[EricNoah]

Addressing only the SoIaF issue...

The Red Wedding was simply, to me, further proof that in Westeros it is not enough to be "good" or "noble." Anyone, anywhere, can be killed and all it takes is some petty reason, some wounded pride. Westeros is a place where almost no one has the luxury of marrying for love, of living a comfortable life free of strife. I wouldn't want to live there -- what a nightmare that would be! "Adventure" -- bah! Most "adventures" involve minor scrapes and hurt feelings. SoIaF is a brutal life and death struggle and there is no knowing who will come out on top. What a thrill to witness it!

Now, I agree that when you have invested yourself in a character and s/he dies, you start wondering if it is worth investing in others. I think it is because it helps you feel the feelings that the author is intending to activate.

 

[Aaron2]

The thing for me is that if I feel that "the author" has killed a character (as I did in ASoIaF) I completely lose nterest in the rest of the story. Because my suspension of disbelief has been dealt a death blow, I don't care what will happen to the characters - I already know. "Whatever the author feels like" is whats going to happen.

The death of Wash in Serenity is one of those things that really takes me out of a story. It brings to the forefront the fact that what you are watching is a movie. The fact that a character's survival is based entirely one the current career status of the actor involved. The characters that always take the risks, that are constantly in life-or-death situations are the characters that are most likely to survive. A character that seldom leaves the ship is just toast waiting to be burned.


Aaron

 

[Kahuna Burger]

So I think this might have to do with just how much people like certain characters. I think people don't mind seeing characters that they deem secondary get killed off, but if one of their favorites bites it, suddenly they find a problem with it, sometimes even subconciously.

My question to you is WHY do you feel that the Red Wedding was author-forced but Tara's death wasn't ? Were you a big fan of Rob and Catelyn? How did you feel about Tara?

ah, if only it were that easy. Unfortunately I liked Tara a fair bit, she was the best of the minor characters. (if only they had killed anya instead!) And I wasn't particularly invested in Cat or Robb, they were both OK, but not engrossing to me.

Mostly, I remember reading it and just saying "yeah right...." Especially the bit with the tents full of armed men (which I guess had been up for the whole day and no one who wasn't supposed to had ever wandered into one thinking it was a feast tent... ) who destroy the army of the north outright. It was the literary version of a particularly bad D&D game where the DM just decides something is going to happen and logic be damned. It was a scooby doo moment for me, where scooby and shaggy run away from the monster and slam the door and then the monster's in the room with them? Why? Just, you know, thats what happens.

Bear in mind I wasn't in love with the books at that point. I read the first three at a wack on the advice of my hubby (we've talked about that particular wrong steer at length) and I doubt I would have been waiting on the second or third with bated breath after the first one. But a couple of the characters were still interesting to me, and I had invested however many hundred pages of reading at that point, might as well get the pay off, eh? It was at that point that I knew the payoff was never coming at least for me.

 

[Dagger75]

I like when main characters die. Thats why I like Martin. I liked it in Serenity also. When you see a main character die you know the world created isn't safe. On B5 when Marcus died that was cool to. He was a fan favorite and he bought it. Made the whole war seem even that much more deadly.

Jordan can't kill off his characters. Who cares what happens, After 11 books everybody still there. Are they really in that much danger, are the bad guys really that powerful that none of Rands friends are in danger, even when they are no where near him.

 

[Dark Jezter]

And I wasn't particularly invested in Cat or Robb, they were both OK, but not engrossing to me.

Mostly, I remember reading it and just saying "yeah right...." Especially the bit with the tents full of armed men (which I guess had been up for the whole day and no one who wasn't supposed to had ever wandered into one thinking it was a feast tent... ) who destroy the army of the north outright. It was the literary version of a particularly bad D&D game where the DM just decides something is going to happen and logic be damned. It was a scooby doo moment for me, where scooby and shaggy run away from the monster and slam the door and then the monster's in the room with them? Why? Just, you know, thats what happens.

Bear in mind I wasn't in love with the books at that point. I read the first three at a wack on the advice of my hubby (we've talked about that particular wrong steer at length) and I doubt I would have been waiting on the second or third with bated breath after the first one. But a couple of the characters were still interesting to me, and I had invested however many hundred pages of reading at that point, might as well get the pay off, eh? It was at that point that I knew the payoff was never coming at least for me.

Nicely put, KB. That pretty much sums up why the Red Wedding scene made me groan. With a single hard-to-believe plot twist, GRRM killed off two major characters and an entire army. I'm half-expecting a future book in the series to depict Dani finally arriving on the shores of Westoros with her invincible legions... and then they are suddenly all swept away by a freak tidal wave.

Although I will admit that I almost cheered when Catelyn died. Her pessimism and constant angsting had been getting on my nerves for quite a while.