When and why were the factions driven out of Sigil?
- Thread starter Silverblade The Ench
- Start date
I wouldn't say only ever detracted... but very frequently. Here's the thing: While I love the original Dark Sun boxed set, I detest and would never use any of the stuff about Rajaat or the Champions or the history of Athas as TSR developed it. I simply won't run a Dark Sun game with that material in it. If I can excise it easily, I will; if I can't, I'll shrug, toss the setting away, and go back to my usual practice of homebrewing the world from scratch.
If the Prism Pentad becomes "canonical" Dark Sun, then I have to start sorting out and explaining to my players which "canonical" elements of Dark Sun we're using and which we're not. It becomes a major pain to get everybody on the same page; players who've read the Prism Pentad and the various modules and the revised set and all the other stuff will have all sorts of assumptions about the world, which will have to be corrected point by point.
If the Prism Pentad is not "canonical," then you can have Rajaat and the Champions, and Silverblade can have his mind flayers (which is a cool idea IMO), and I can have whatever I feel like putting in. None of us has to explain to our players that no, you should ignore all this stuff over here, but that stuff over there is still correct (and our players don't have to wrack their brains remembering which setting details came from where).
Not only that, but if I want to plan an adventure arc around uncovering the origins of the sorceror-kings, it will be a genuine mystery to my players. I don't have to worry that somebody will have read the Prism Pentad and be sitting there bored while I lay out stuff he already knows.
This is why I think WotC's model for handling settings (three books and done) is a good one. Pick the core conceit of the setting, elaborate on it in broad strokes, and leave individual DMs to fill in the details. For 4E Dark Sun, my hope is that they stay silent on the history of the world and the origins of the SKs. They don't have to disavow the Prism Pentad or any of the stuff that followed, they just have to not mention it.
The term "Mary Sue" has long since ceased to apply only to fanfic. It is now generally considered applicable to original/published characters as well (although some prefer the term "canon Sue").
That said, I'm at a loss to understand what Mary Sue has to do with Silverblade's "mind flayer apocalypse" setting ideas.
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Orius
Unrepentant DM Supremacist
I think the best way for TSR to have handled some of these major earth-changing events would have been to set up a series of modules and let the PCs be the ones to take the lead. So take Dark Sun for example. Instead of bumping off the SKs with NPCs in a set of books, there should have been a series of adventures where the PCs get to take them out. Hell, it works very well with the pulpy origins of D&D in the first place, because that's the sort of thing Conan would did do.
And the modules need to make the PCs the stars, not have them be the specators to Cyric, Midnight, and Kelemvor, you know like the Time of Troubles stuff that everyone hates from the Realms. Players don't like being second banana to some annoying NPC(s). And the modules have to be set up so they're not overly railroady, like say no HUGE armies of draconians to the north sorts of things.
And the modules need to make the PCs the stars, not have them be the specators to Cyric, Midnight, and Kelemvor, you know like the Time of Troubles stuff that everyone hates from the Realms. Players don't like being second banana to some annoying NPC(s). And the modules have to be set up so they're not overly railroady, like say no HUGE armies of draconians to the north sorts of things.
Silverblade The Ench
First Post
Orius,
yes, exactly!!
Only the Players should get to do such stuff, for goodness sake, yeesh!
One MAYBE one SK dying in official history, ok, fine, but not six of them, and ganked by the worst bunch of under powered, no hope doofuses ever
(well not all of 'em were doofuses, but they were hopeless as a group)
Rikus was 8th lvl when he killed Kalak...I don't care how much help he had, it was dumb, Kalak is uber powerful and gets ganked so eaisly?! Thpppptttt!
Cleansing War sucks because...it sets in stone which creatures exist/don't exist and who killed 'em. Think about it a minute.
Three cheers for Dausuul!!
many folk agree with this line of thinking. The original Dark Sun was awesome. But TSR as usual, trashed it to fit novels and even the writer/designers admit it was a mistake from what I've read!
I have my backstory I like, but even I take it as a "possibility"...each DM should be allowed ot make his own mind up about it, that's part of why Dark Sun is such fun.
Here's a thing:
campaigns belong to the players/DM not TSR or WOTC, like it or not, lol. Becuase, he who plays it, owns that "play setting they are building together", ya know?
Hand us the basics, and add ons, please, but don't ram it down our throats how we wish it to develop.
I loved the very first Forgotten Realms boxed set, wow, such promise, huge wilderness, do anything, then it got hemmed in....meh :/
Maps, cities, characters are fine to add, but it was the whole weight of it, and it went from a rough, wide open wonder to...a straight jacket.
I'll happily play the 1st Realms, Dark Sun, Planescape and Ravenloft sets, they are awesome.
But not a fair chunk of what was done to them after that.
Dune Trader was an example of an excellent add on, it didn't gimp or striaght jacket, it added a "side ways" look and group, and with lots of colourful fluff and a new interesting class, the trader. it felt "Optional but extremely cool".
Where as the adventures to do with Rikus and that, ugh, excuse me but don't force me to play a plot AND characters others have created that's trying ot herd the entire game setting down a path I don't damn well like!
It's kind of like why a lot of folk don't like Draognlance as a D&D setting. Aweosme books, bad D&D because your an add on, or second rater ot the "Big heroes of the novels" and the story is already pre-determined, for pity's sake what's the fun in that?!
Imagine if Tolkein had written fully detialed info on all the NPCs, areas etc for Middle Earth, with stats...it would rob the wonder of it.
Mystery, blank spaces on the map, ignorance of much of what's going on, wonder, fear, thrill, are all linked.
All you need is important maps, areas and NPC general info.
You cannot be afriad of the Lady of Pain or the Sorceror Kings, if you add stats ot them, in which case they become mere XP monsters!
"If it has stats, we can kill it!" Conan the PC says
My players liked the fact that when King Kalak of Tyr wanted their characters dead, they just had to RUN ad they knew they had no chance if they didn't flee...which is a good thing, actually.
yes, exactly!!
Only the Players should get to do such stuff, for goodness sake, yeesh!
One MAYBE one SK dying in official history, ok, fine, but not six of them, and ganked by the worst bunch of under powered, no hope doofuses ever
(well not all of 'em were doofuses, but they were hopeless as a group)
Rikus was 8th lvl when he killed Kalak...I don't care how much help he had, it was dumb, Kalak is uber powerful and gets ganked so eaisly?! Thpppptttt!
Cleansing War sucks because...it sets in stone which creatures exist/don't exist and who killed 'em. Think about it a minute.
Three cheers for Dausuul!!
many folk agree with this line of thinking. The original Dark Sun was awesome. But TSR as usual, trashed it to fit novels and even the writer/designers admit it was a mistake from what I've read!
I have my backstory I like, but even I take it as a "possibility"...each DM should be allowed ot make his own mind up about it, that's part of why Dark Sun is such fun.
Here's a thing:
campaigns belong to the players/DM not TSR or WOTC, like it or not, lol. Becuase, he who plays it, owns that "play setting they are building together", ya know?
Hand us the basics, and add ons, please, but don't ram it down our throats how we wish it to develop.
I loved the very first Forgotten Realms boxed set, wow, such promise, huge wilderness, do anything, then it got hemmed in....meh :/
Maps, cities, characters are fine to add, but it was the whole weight of it, and it went from a rough, wide open wonder to...a straight jacket.
I'll happily play the 1st Realms, Dark Sun, Planescape and Ravenloft sets, they are awesome.
But not a fair chunk of what was done to them after that.
Dune Trader was an example of an excellent add on, it didn't gimp or striaght jacket, it added a "side ways" look and group, and with lots of colourful fluff and a new interesting class, the trader. it felt "Optional but extremely cool".
Where as the adventures to do with Rikus and that, ugh, excuse me but don't force me to play a plot AND characters others have created that's trying ot herd the entire game setting down a path I don't damn well like!
It's kind of like why a lot of folk don't like Draognlance as a D&D setting. Aweosme books, bad D&D because your an add on, or second rater ot the "Big heroes of the novels" and the story is already pre-determined, for pity's sake what's the fun in that?!
Imagine if Tolkein had written fully detialed info on all the NPCs, areas etc for Middle Earth, with stats...it would rob the wonder of it.
Mystery, blank spaces on the map, ignorance of much of what's going on, wonder, fear, thrill, are all linked.
All you need is important maps, areas and NPC general info.
You cannot be afriad of the Lady of Pain or the Sorceror Kings, if you add stats ot them, in which case they become mere XP monsters!
"If it has stats, we can kill it!" Conan the PC says
My players liked the fact that when King Kalak of Tyr wanted their characters dead, they just had to RUN ad they knew they had no chance if they didn't flee...which is a good thing, actually.
Which is why it should be left to individual DMs.
Then what's the point? The players know, the characters don't, and any adventure exploring the unknown past becomes a wink-nod game between the DM and the players - there is no actual mystery involved.
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