When are rogues "really" necessary anymore? if at all...

[painandgreed]

Oh, that. We replaced our rogue with a druid with maxed out diplomacy and a bag of tricks (to detect traps).

We replaced all our spell casters with rogues with Use Magic Device. Since all most wizards do is blast, usually a wand of some blasting spell will replace them fairly well. Once we got a wand of Cure Light Wounds, nobody missed the cleric. Except for a few potions, all stuff was picked up off of dead enemies and was sufficient to keep us in wands and scrolls to use when needed.

 

[Warren Okuma]

We replaced all our spell casters with rogues with Use Magic Device. Since all most wizards do is blast, usually a wand of some blasting spell will replace them fairly well.

As long as you can afford it and find it for sale, sure. Expensive though. Bag of tricks is cheap. Though wizard buffs are nice.

Once we got a wand of Cure Light Wounds, nobody missed the cleric.

Heal and cure disease in nice though. And the buffs are really nice. You got to use the cleric to it's full efficiency.

Except for a few potions, all stuff was picked up off of dead enemies and was sufficient to keep us in wands and scrolls to use when needed.

Not in my experience. Yours?

Oh and you can replace rogues with low level spells. Summons, knock, unseen servant, etc... Very expensive to replace a high level druid, cleric, or wizard.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Detect traps isn't necessary. Any barbarian can just wade through traps like no tomorrow. Why is the rogue necessary again?

Are you serious? There are traps out there that aren't just damage.

One of my favorites is a trap that casts temporal stasis on the person triggering it while simultaneously summoning monsters. Or a "simple" prismatic spray trap. Not so great when somebody was sent to another plane. Or traps that fill an area with water, drowning people in the room. Perhaps a trap that alerts the creatures in the dungeon to the PCs' presence.

Sure, if you're just using traps that deal some damage, so that the cleric can cast some cure spells and get everything back to normal, then yeah, detecting traps won't be necessary. But, that's highly game dependent.

So, is the Fighter required? Nope. The wizard? Nah. The cleric? No again.

I don't understand what the issue here is.

 

[Psion]

I run a pretty skill dependent game. Bluff, spot, listen, hide, move silent, sense motive, search, and disable device all come up with moderate to great frequency. Some casters have spells that can replicate some of those skills, but not with great frequency.

 

[Emirikol]

Are you serious? There are traps out there that aren't just damage.
One of my favorites is a trap that casts temporal stasis on the person triggering it while simultaneously summoning monsters.

Perhaps in a Gygaxian setting rogues are required then..but it's not realistic to expect that a typical world (or dungeon for that matter) are going to loaded with Grimtooth's traps.

I concede then that in a GYgaxian "Tomb of Horrors" style world, a rogue could save you some resources later.

jh

 

[EricNoah]

Maybe the better question is "Is a rogue fun to play" and I would say yes. Between often being the first person to enter/view an encounter area and the ability to dish out sneak attack damage, the scouting and combat role of the rogue can be quite entertaining.

If the question is -- can a party survive and thrive without a rogue? I would say, sure.

 

[hong]

I wonder what replacing the rogue with the IH executioner would be like. No bomb-disposal skills worth speaking of, but lots of ninja stealthkill-powers.

 

[Kunimatyu]

As a DM, I discourage rogues in my games. I dislike the 'gotcha!' nature of traps, so I rarely use them(though giant set-piece traps ala Indiana Jones do occasionally pop up). I felt the rogue was starting to see uselessness a long time ago, and with the proliferation of new classes -- and all the monsters completely immune to Sneak Attack -- it's difficult for a basic rogue to have nearly the impact of a fighter or caster-type. They do see some use as high-Cha "faces" for the party, but really, Beguiler is the way to go if that's your goal.

Hong's suggestion of making the rogue more like the IH executioner is a good one, and would probably make a lot of rogue players happy.

 

[Wombat]

In my campaigns they were the primary class, followed by the fighter, then the wizard and cleric in about equal proportions.

Partially this was due to a long-running city-based campaign where there were severe restrictions on armour, but more due to the temperament of my players and the general flavour of our campaigns.

Then again, the Gutter Mage from The Book of Roguish Luck was also starting to work its way up in the game...

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I played many rogues, and they have never been the fifth wheel. I always had something the other characters didn't. Usually it was several things.