When Charisma isn't the only way to measure strength of personality

[Vrecknidj]

I was thinking that, while someone with a high Charisma might be able to Bluff his way out of a situation, or be particularly Diplomatic, I was also thinking that a smart enough person might be able to accomplish a similar feat (pardon the equivocal use of that term), or a wise enough person might be able to duplicate the effects of a Bluff simply by being shrewd from having lived through so many others trying to Bluff him.

So, it got me to thinking that there might be some kind of feat that would allow a character to substitute his Intelligence or Wisdom modifier for his Charisma modifier in some of the Charisma-based skills.

Self Assured
Prerequisite: Int 15 or Wis 15
Benefit: You may use your Intelligence or Wisdom modifier in place of your Charisma modifier in the following skills. Bluff (Int or Wis), Diplomacy (Int or Wis), Gather Information (Int), and Intimidate (Wis). In addition, any time you are required to make a Charisma check, you may substitute an Intelligence or Wisdom check instead, though at a -1 penalty to the roll.

This isn't a "gee whiz" kind of feat, I'd imagine it wouldn't be terribly popular. But, a really smart, but not terribly charismatic rogue might benefit from it, for instance.

Good, bad, ugly? (Does this already exist somewhere? There are way too many books for me to keep track of them all.)

Dave

 

[TheCrazyMuffinMan]

I was thinking that, while someone with a high Charisma might be able to Bluff his way out of a situation, or be particularly Diplomatic, I was also thinking that a smart enough person might be able to accomplish a similar feat (pardon the equivocal use of that term), or a wise enough person might be able to duplicate the effects of a Bluff simply by being shrewd from having lived through so many others trying to Bluff him.

So, it got me to thinking that there might be some kind of feat that would allow a character to substitute his Intelligence or Wisdom modifier for his Charisma modifier in some of the Charisma-based skills.

Self Assured
Prerequisite: Int 15 or Wis 15
Benefit: You may use your Intelligence or Wisdom modifier in place of your Charisma modifier in the following skills. Bluff (Int or Wis), Diplomacy (Int or Wis), Gather Information (Int), and Intimidate (Wis). In addition, any time you are required to make a Charisma check, you may substitute an Intelligence or Wisdom check instead, though at a -1 penalty to the roll.

This isn't a "gee whiz" kind of feat, I'd imagine it wouldn't be terribly popular. But, a really smart, but not terribly charismatic rogue might benefit from it, for instance.

Good, bad, ugly? (Does this already exist somewhere? There are way too many books for me to keep track of them all.)

Dave

The system I created (LIPASE) has no concept of Charisma, nor does it really need one. The way I see it, social stuff mainly is based on Intuition, because social ability and personality are mainly intuitive rather than analytical. In cases where fast thinking is required in order to convince someone of something, or to bluff someone, then Learning would be used. Your feat is extremely sensible in allowing for this sort of thing.

 

[Ilium]

Your example of the smart rogue is actually my main concern with this. It makes Charisma a dump stat for yet more characters. I'd bump the penalty up to -2 and make it apply to the skill checks as well, I think.

 

[HeinorNY]

I'd make it one feat per skill.

 

[Masquerade]

I'd make it one feat per skill.

Same here. Those skills play a major role in certain games, mine included, but applying this to one skill seems like a fine way of balancing it.

 

[Nifft]

Charisma and Strength are already kinda dumpy looking. Every feat that reduces their value makes me think they shouldn't really be in the game to begin with...

I'll bet we could get by with just four stats (Power, Speed, Will and Wit), and some Traits to express the extreme cases where those four are "split".

Will would be your ability to concentrate, persevere, resist Will saves (etc.) -- many benefits of Wisdom, plus the Force of Personality stuff from Charisma.

Wit would be your ability to reason and perceive stuff -- many benefits of Intelligence, plus some of the skills from Wisdom.

Power would be your physical toughness and strength (Constitution + Strength). Clearly very important for many characters.

Speed would be your Dexterity. This is the one stat which IMHO needs no improvement.

- - -

Traits (would require at least 14 in the appropriate ability score):

- Acrobatic (split Speed): +4 to acrobatics, -4 to hand-eye coordination stuff
- Tinkerer (split Speed): -4 to acrobatics, +4 to hand-eye coordination stuff

(etc.)

- - -

Hmm. Been thinking about this for a while. Ah, someday.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Vrecknidj]

Your example of the smart rogue is actually my main concern with this. It makes Charisma a dump stat for yet more characters. I'd bump the penalty up to -2 and make it apply to the skill checks as well, I think.

Hmm. Does increasing the penalty really serve the intended purpose? I mean, if the penalty is -1, then having an 8 Charisma might be okay. If the penalty is -2, then having a 6 Charisma might be okay. I wonder.

Still, I accept the point.

I don't know about the other suggestion, to make it one feat per skill, that seems to me to make it almost so unattractive as to not be worthwhile for anyone.

Thanks for the comments so far though.

Dave

 

[Felnar]

so if you had a 16 int (quite common) that'd be +3 or more to four social skills, or rather +4 or more assuming the character has a charisma penalty (which someone taking this feat likely would). And int tends to get pushed into the 20s.

basically your feat is a better version of skill focus, but at 1/4th the cost

another comparable feat is Tactile Trapsmith from Complete Adventurer, but even it switches one non-dump stat for another non-dump stat

 

[HolyGrenadeFrenzy]

The system I created (LIPASE) has no concept of Charisma, nor does it really need one. The way I see it, social stuff mainly is based on Intuition, because social ability and personality are mainly intuitive rather than analytical. In cases where fast thinking is required in order to convince someone of something, or to bluff someone, then Learning would be used. Your feat is extremely sensible in allowing for this sort of thing.

With all respects to this poster I would like to go into a lexiconal journey here.....Charisma is an attribute that lends to charm and attractiveness but is not derived from it or social skill either. It represents innate spiritual power that effects corrospondance and many other aspects of life but as in the case of the paladin and the sorcerer has little to do with social activity and more to do with spiritual aptitude by nature. I am not using game definitions alone either, as I have studied the older uses of the word in-depth during college. It has a partnership with both Wisdom and Intelligence which is strong yet can also be uneasy as well.

Truely I was surprised at its older terminology and dismayed to know how it had lost its former use through gross misuse in recent history.

From the greek word charis which means favor and grace, mostly used in denoting divine origin of grace and divine favor. Even Websters 10th Collegiate reveals that much although it does give Christian claim to the origin of the word Charisma and its usage involving the Holy Spirit as well.

Now I am not going to brow beat anyone for using Charisma as a Social Aptitude because it would over complicate t hings. Simply put, this stat can be used for both things without a problem and even Luch can be explained with it because luck is also a term used to denote favor with the gods, historically.

Yet, I would not think that "looks" are necissary for gaming, like another stat of comliness from the 1st addition Unearthed Arcana days, either. Beauty can be more than skin deep regardless of the nasty reputation comliness has gotten throughout history. Nor is beauty only in the eyes of the beholder unless you consider whom the beholder may be.

I was looking through some posts and noticed yours, hope you take no offense to my post.

On Topic

I agree with the original poster and every one else to a degree yet an intellectual should also be able to confer with others in a manner that assists yet with enough candor not to offend..........If I fail myself with my presentation it could be attributed to a lack of proper establishment and respect or any number of things thrown in with charisma......See what I mean?

Yet the feat looks pretty sound to me and is a very nice addition to the game in my opinion.

 

[TheCrazyMuffinMan]

With all respects to this poster I would like to go into a lexiconal journey here.....Charisma is an attribute that lends to charm and attractiveness but is not derived from it or social skill either. It represents innate spiritual power that effects corrospondance and many other aspects of life but as in the case of the paladin and the sorcerer has little to do with social activity and more to do with spiritual aptitude by nature. I am not using game definitions alone either, as I have studied the older uses of the word in-depth during college.

Truely I was surprised at its older terminology and dismayed to know how it had lost its former use through gross misuse in recent history.

From the greek word charis which means favor and grace, mostly used in denoting divine origin of grace and divine favor. Even Websters 10th Collegiate reveals that much although it does give Christian claim to the origin of the word Charisma and its usage involving the Holy Spirit as well.

Now I am not going to brow beat anyone for using Charisma as a Social Aptitude because it would over complicate t hings. Simply put, this stat can be used for both things without a problem and even Luch can be explained with it because luck is also a term used to denote favor with the gods, historically.

Yet, I would not think that "looks" are necissary for gaming, like another stat of comliness from the 1st addition Unearthed Arcana days, either. Beauty can be more than skin deep regardless of the nasty reputation comliness has gotten throughout history. Nor is beauty only in the eyes of the beholder unless you consider whom the beholder may be.

I was looking through some posts and noticed yours, hope you take no offense to my post.

On Topic

I agree with the original poster and every one else to a degree yet an intellectual should also be able to confer with others in a manner that assists yet with enough candor not to offend..........If I fail myself with my presentation it could be attributed to a lack of proper establishment and respect or any number of things thrown in with charisma......See what I mean?

Yet the feat looks pretty sound to me and is a very nice addition to the game in my opinion.

No offense taken, ese.

However, the Paladin being so dependent on CHA makes more sense now. Thanks!