When did I stop being WotC's target audience?

[thecasualoblivion]

The moment that performing a haiku is as important in the game as a spot check or combat is the moment I stop playing D&D.

I don't think I am alone in this.

 

[Rel]

The moment that performing a haiku is as important in the game as a spot check or combat is the moment I stop playing D&D.

You especially don't want to play that sort of game with Ovinomancer. Fair warning.

 

[Fifth Element]

The moment that performing a haiku is as important in the game as a spot check or combat is the moment I stop playing D&D.

I don't think I am alone in this.

Methinks you have missed the point. It can be important is some people's games.

 

[Imaro]

Methinks you have missed the point. It can be important is some people's games.

QFT, I could definitely see something like this being important in a feudal era Japan inspired game. In fact I think it would probably be cool to play in something like this.

 

[Scribble]

QFT, I could definitely see something like this being important in a feudal era Japan inspired game. In fact I think it would probably be cool to play in something like this.

I think it would be interesting if done in a skill challange sort of way...

Maybe a good roll on streetwise helps you understand what things are important to a society.

A little history lets you know what things to include.

Diplomacy to actually pull it off...

 

[Rel]

Methinks you have missed the point. It can be important is some people's games.

And I'm afraid you missed my joke. It's a running joke over at Circvs Maximvs that Ovinomancer is a total nazi about what is and isn't a haiku.

Believe me, I'm not one to be tossing about any accusations about "badwrongfun" based on what people like in their games.

Personally I like ones with strippers.

 

[Thasmodious]

Granted, if you ignore the fact that all classes can now be effective negotiators and are not limited due to skill points and cross class skill limits, and that the skill challenge system allows for skills other than diplomacy, intimidate and bluff to be used in said negotiation.

Phaezen

What would midget want to allow for such considerations as these when they completely defeat his argument? Can't let such things stand in the way of perfectly valid, baseless rants, now can we?

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Methinks you have missed the point. It can be important is some people's games.

Sure, it can be important in some peoples games. D&D should not be that game, at least not in the core rulebooks. Such a situation is the definition of what houserules are for.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

There's also the point that the Skill Challenge is mechanically a bit unhinged, so that if you are using it a lot, you will start to notice imbalance. And that the open-ended nature of it rarely enhances the idea of a noncombat archetype, being that you can use many diverse skills to accomplish the same goal.

I like the fact that the DM is encouraged to allow diverse skill use to accomplish a Skill Challenge. It fosters player creativity.

All classes being effective and other skills being useful is kind of like giving all characters the healing powers of a Leader, the marking abilties of a Defender, the area-effect of the Controller, and the damage output of a Striker and saying everything is good.

It is nothing like that. It may allow the options to excel at a greater vartiety of skills, but by no means is every character good at every skill.

It's a valid design choice, but it lacks a certain variety that the defined roles contribute. A lack of variety in the rules implies that it isn't often to be used, because it's going to require more work to make it more interesting in repeated usage.

I enjoy running skill challenges. And I run them off-the-cuff to make them more interesting. I allow the players to decide what their characters want to do and with which skill they attempt to do it. Then I employ the "say yes" attitude to come up with interesting results of success or failure. The DMG suggests a model of being more prepared for a skill challenge, but also suggests being open to possibilities that hadn't occurred to you in preparation. I leave myself open to any possibility because I have decided to prepare nothing except possibly the goal of the skill challenge.

Use of this method has increased my table's roleplaying skill and creativity.

And it certainly reduces variety (however flawed) from 3e, stepping away from these character details in favor of a sort of noncombat socialism of equally distributed skill.

Even if this is true, it increases participation, which previous editions sorely lacked IMO.

If I don't have mechanics for how my character performs these things I'm talking about, I'm less inclined to waste time talking about them. If spouting haikus is important for my fighter, I want to represent that without having to be a master of spontaneous haiku myself, while still having the detail that makes me feel like that is important.

I would ask you what you wanted to accomplish by spouting haikus and then work your haiku-spouting into the mechanics.

No, I mean like allowing my negotiation skills to come to the fore several times in every session by weaving them into the fabric of the game like Sneak Attack does.

Skill Challenge is okay if you don't look too closely at it, but if you try to make noncombat a big part of your game, it quickly shows itself to be in need of fixing, and lacking in variety and strategy.

Unlike, say, combat, which works pretty well, and has a lot of variety and strategy.

Non-combat situations are the ultimate in variety! They are everything your character does except fight. Making specific rules for one specific activity your character involves himself in makes sense. Making specific rules for an infinite number of activities does not, a more open-ended approach needs to be taken to give you the tools needed to resolve each particular situation.

Why fix Sneak Attack but not Diplomacy, Craft, Perform, Profession, or a host of other skills? In my book, it's because they thought SA was more important. This leads to a game where SA is usually the better, more entertaining, more balanced option to resolve an encounter than Diplomacy is. A more combat-focused game.

To me the fix was to make the skills broader and more open-ended. Not to have a chart that tells me your pimped-out 5th level bard with a +30 Diplomacy modifier can make even the most vile of demon lords with new best friend.

 

[Fifth Element]

And I'm afraid you missed my joke.

Oh, I wasn't responding to you but mr. oblivion.

Edit: Ha. Just checked my post and noticed I quoted the wrong post. My apologies.