When does Verisimilitude break down?

[LGodamus]

Hong, I think that was your best reply to anything, ever.

I agree 200%

 

[Celtavian]

re

IBesides, do you know how many people you'd have to kill to reach 8th level? Can you see an entire corps doing that?

Here is one my biggest pet peeves with the D&D system where the verisimilitude starts to break down for me: The combat-only experience point system. How do you even become an experienced blacksmith if the only way to do so is not making swords but using them? I have house ruled a way for non-combat advancement, but D&D needs to incorporate a system for non-combat advancement themselves to account for training and years of downtime. Such a system would greatly improve the verisimiltude of the game.

 

[William Ronald]

I think one thing that helps add a sense of reality is that it should take a character some considerable time to rise from a novice to a master of a profession. I actually worked up a character from 1st to 35th level, playing many other characters along the way. Did I mention that I created the character back in 1983 or 1984?

In game time, I think it should take perhaps a decade or more for someone to rise to the top of his profession. I tend to assume characters take sometime practicing their skills and abilities. Also, travel is something that can take up a lot of time as can role playing and challenging the players to use their wits.

Celtavian, I recall that Baerendur (Darrin Drader) uses an xp system where combat only counts for one-third of total experience. The rest is based on accomplishing missions and role playing. As for an NPC, perhaps they can gain some xp in using their skills on a daily or weekly basis. This could either be a fixed amount or could very with die rolls. Thus an experienced blacksmith, who does exceptionally well with a given roll could be entitled to extra x.p.

I think it is up to the DM to give an air of reality to a setting. I believe that both Joshua Dyal's and SHARK's approaches are valid. Among the key questions to ask are "Does the setting have a feel of reality, given its situations?" and "Do I care about the setting, and have an emotional investment in it." I have had fun with low-level scenarios and with epic level scenarios. When they have suceeded, I believed that given the setting, certain events and actions were plausible. Also, another important thing is what I call "the fighting chance" doctirne. Players like to feel that they have a fighting chance, even if the odds are high.

So, I think adding an air of reality is something that comes with time and practice. A good guide for DMs might be, "If I saw it in a movie or read it in a book, would I believe it? Would I like to be a character facing this situation?" Empathy and understanding are VERY important traits for successful DMs.

 

[MQP]

Here is one my biggest pet peeves with the D&D system where the verisimilitude starts to break down for me: The combat-only experience point system. How do you even become an experienced blacksmith if the only way to do so is not making swords but using them?

D20 does not have a combat-only experience point system. It has a challenge-only experience point system.

The Fighter is challenged by the orc raiding party. By overcoming that challenge(combat!) he gains XP. The Rogue is challenged by the guards at the gate to the temple. By overcoming that challenge (sneak by them!) she gains XP.

The blacksmith is challenged by forging a blade greater than any blade he has forged before (MW from a lump of mithril, or something), By overcoming that challenge, he gains XP.

The aristocrat forges treaties, hosts (successful) balls, etc. The farmer brings in a good crop. The bartender diffuses a hostile situation at the tavern. The merchant swindles a dumb commoner. All of these things garner XP.

MQP

 

[Ukyo the undead]

I think of HP as "dodge". It eases the verisimilitude pain.

ciaran

But when the cleric waste 3 cure critical wounds on the 14th level fighter, just to recover his "dodge meter", verisimilitude pain come backs, strong as ever,,,

 

[shilsen]

But when the cleric waste 3 cure critical wounds on the 14th level fighter, just to recover his "dodge meter", verisimilitude pain come backs, strong as ever,,,

DM - "As the cleric casts his spell, you feel the tiredness in your muscles ebb away, leaving you again able to defend yourself to the best of your ability".

 

[Celtavian]

re

D20 does not have a combat-only experience point system. It has a challenge-only experience point system.

Challenged-based with most of the challenges being combat.

The Rogue is challenged by the guards at the gate to the temple. By overcoming that challenge (sneak by them!) she gains XP.

I don't often run solo rogue adventures, so usually the party ends up killing the guards at some point in time.

The blacksmith is challenged by forging a blade greater than any blade he has forged before (MW from a lump of mithril, or something), By overcoming that challenge, he gains XP.

That is real fun for the DM to come up with a suitable challenge rating for forging a blade. Like I said, I have a non-combat experience system that I use which I find more effective than the current D&D system.

The aristocrat forges treaties, hosts (successful) balls, etc. The farmer brings in a good crop. The bartender diffuses a hostile situation at the tavern. The merchant swindles a dumb commoner. All of these things garner XP.

MQP

How do you devise the challenge ratings for such things? It sounds nice in theory, but in play coming up with CR's for mundane activities is not practical. These are activities the NPC's in question do fairly often and a system of slow xp accumulation for a given time works better than a assigning them a CR.

 

[MQP]

Challenged-based with most of the challenges being combat.

*snip*

That is real fun for the DM to come up with a suitable challenge rating for forging a blade. Like I said, I have a non-combat experience system that I use which I find more effective than the current D&D system.

How do you devise the challenge ratings for such things? It sounds nice in theory, but in play coming up with CR's for mundane activities is not practical. These are activities the NPC's in question do fairly often and a system of slow xp accumulation for a given time works better than a assigning them a CR.

I never have, and I've never had to; yeah, the CRs in the book are based around combat, and why not? I don't need to know what the CR for forging twenty blades in five days for the militia - because my PCs aren't blacksmiths. All the DM has to know is how many XPs the PCs are gathering. It's enough for me to know that blacksmiths do gain XP for doing what they do, and they never have to go out and fight a displacer beast to level up and increase their Craft: Weaponsmithing skill.

MQP

 

[Dragonblade]

You are right, hong, in that HP and the standard D&D assumption work great in creating the sort of epic badass heroes found in literature and comics.

The problem is that literature and comics are a medium entirely controlled by an author. The actions of these heroic characters stay in their social frameworks because the author writes them that way.

A DM playing with a bunch of unpredictable players does not have that luxury.

As far as XP for NPCs goes, obviously a replacement for the kill things and level up model needs to be found. I say give experience for story and deemphasize combat based XP. Also give experience for time and/or training. For example, if an NPC or PC practices some set of skills such as magic or even blacksmithing for a year, give them a level. So a blacksmith with 20 years of experience at the forge would be a 20th level expert and so on.

 

[I'm A Banana]

A DM playing with a bunch of unpredictable players does not have that luxury.

No, but they do have the luxury of NPC's. What, are your PC's the first badass heroes in Adventureville? Ever? If not, there should be at least one retired adventurer wizard who takes a dim view of their antics, martials some of his buds, and goes on one last hurrah. Your PC's aren't the only one with the ability to wreak havoc, and if they are, the order should fight back...(iwth more or less force depending upon what kind of game you like to run).

As far as XP for NPCs goes, obviously a replacement for the kill things and level up model needs to be found.

I would respectfully disagree.

I'd say the world's greatest blacksmith certainly needs to do more than bang metal all day, just like the world's greatest warrior needs to do more than stab bushes all day. Blacksmithing can involve as much adventure as being a knight in shining armor, sometimes. Perhaps duergar have captured your main Adamantium supplier? Perhaps you've heard rumors of a living metal in the jungle that you need to check out? Maybe you'd like to live among the dwarves for a time, and get caught up in their war for a king.

I mean, you're an EPIC BLACKSMITH! Certainly you're not just shoeing horses for a living! You're having adventures! Not nessecarily the same adventures as the wizard, but still...you're at least tagging along with a nice party of questors, and even doing *that* nets you XP.

Similarly, I think the "greatest *blanks* in the world" should be the PC's, or other adventurer types. I know if I sat around buidling up my Craft (weaponsmithing) skill every time I leveled only to have the DM tell me that Mooky McMook-Mook was crafting better knives in his sleep, and he's never stepped out of his forge....well, that's just incentive to *not* go adventuring....screw questing, if I can make magic items sitting on bupkiss, why bother fighting mind flayers for it?

If you're the best farmer in the world, you don't just have a lot of ranks in Profession (sheepbeater)...you've got skills from farming through that plague of undead when you had to defend your family, and hitpoints from that time the druids went to war with you, and ranks in Craft (wool underpants) for that time the demon king of ice lorded it over you for a few years.

In D&D, anyone who isn't a mook is having adventures all the time. If you want your NPC's to not be mooks, give them some adventure, make them insteresting, develop plots around them where they go with the PC's. You don't get to be the best scholar in the world just by reading a lot, y'know...