D&D 5E When Fiends Attack: Are Balors, Pit Fiends and Ultraloths too weak?

[FormerlyHemlock]

So we have 2 options:
- He dies easily in a pair of rounds of direct confrontation, if the players make their saves he could die practically without causing any damage as some DMs have reported. Players will be happy but tell you the villain was awful.
- He is invincible, your player characters die or go home bored, your players know how worthy were all those roleplaying sessions and reward the DM raising their middle finger.

Option #3: players do something clever.

For example, if they have found the Sunsword, they can keep the Sunsword hidden, perhaps by casting a Seeming spell that scrambles all the PCs' appearances to make the burly fighters look like scrawny wizards and vice versa. Then they go looking for Strahd, and when Strahd attacks a scrawny wizard (really a burly fighter, hopefully one with the Sunsword), the scrawny wizard (burly fighter) whips out the sunsword and grapples Strahd (probably pins him prone too), with Strahd making his checks at disadvantage because of sunlight. Uh-oh, now he can't use his legendary action to escape because his speed is zero, and his attacks are at disadvantage! Another PC now casts Wall of Force around Strahd + front-liner PCs in a force bubble that will keep him from escaping. Now the front liners fight Strahd, at advantage, and he is slamming them as hard as he can with his Legendary actions but... to no avail. And Strahd dies.

And the players feel awesome, because Strahd died, but not easily. They won!

Some people like to win because they are smart and skilled players. Others like to win because their PCs have high stats. Strahd is better for the former kind of group because the latter kind of player will just get frustrated at losing.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Then they go looking for Strahd, and when Strahd attacks a scrawny wizard (really a burly fighter, hopefully one with the Sunsword), the scrawny wizard (burly fighter) whips out the sunsword and grapples Strahd (probably pins him prone too), with Strahd making his checks at disadvantage because of sunlight. Uh-oh, now he can't use his legendary action to escape because his speed is zero, and his attacks are at disadvantage!

Or the players feel cheesy, because they had to exploit the broken grappling rules, and the whole thing is just as dissatisfying as if he'd died in two rounds. Except this time it's disappointment in the game, rather than just in one enemy.

Like that time when I was playing Pathfinder, and I held off the unbeatable ghost for like an hour by exploiting the ready action to never be hit. Sure, a win is a win, but if you feel compelled to cheese then it doesn't feel like a win.

 

[MonkeezOnFire]

I get the impression from the MM that second bananas do not get legendary actions. All of the monsters with legendary actions are things that are the top dogs, the leaders, the big kahunas of their organization. Dragons, liches and beholders all think that they are the most powerful beings in existence. On the other hand balors and pit fiends serve a greater entity: a demon lord, or an arch devil. This suggests that balors and pit fiends are never the BBEG because there is someone bigger and badder behind them. Given that they don't seem to be designed to be solo monsters in combat, but as tough brutes in medium level play or as mooks to throw in when fighting the actual demon lord at the high levels.

I'm not too well versed in the history of D&D so I can't comment on their roles in past editions and what they're supposed to be, but that's what I'm getting from their 5e entry.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

I get the impression from the MM that second bananas do not get legendary actions. All of the monsters with legendary actions are things that are the top dogs, the leaders, the big kahunas of their organization. Dragons, liches and beholders all think that they are the most powerful beings in existence. On the other hand balors and pit fiends serve a greater entity: a demon lord, or an arch devil. This suggests that balors and pit fiends are never the BBEG because there is someone bigger and badder behind them. Given that they don't seem to be designed to be solo monsters in combat, but as tough brutes in medium level play or as mooks to throw in when fighting the actual demon lord at the high levels.

I'm not too well versed in the history of D&D so I can't comment on their roles in past editions and what they're supposed to be, but that's what I'm getting from their 5e entry.

That is a pretty apt description of their roles in most editions (except 2e, because Satanism meant no big bosses). Usually they are the #1 or #2 underboss (most archdukes had unique devils serving them who rated higher than pit fiends) or summoned bodyguards for the boss. There is a reason archfiends get stats in D&D....

 

[The Crimson Binome]

There is a reason archfiends get stats in D&D....

And yet, those stats are missing from the Monster Manual, leaving the Balors and Pit Fiends as the biggest bads that we actually have stats for.

On the flip side of the coin, Solars do have legendary actions, from what I recall.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

And yet, those stats are missing from the Monster Manual, leaving the Balors and Pit Fiends as the biggest bads that we actually have stats for.

On the flip side of the coin, Solars do have legendary actions, from what I recall.

A number of demon lords have stats in Out of the Abyss. I admit to being surprised (and disappointed) at not seeing any official archdevil stats yet, especially since Asmodeus got statted up in the playtest and Rise of Tiamat was a good excuse for at least one archdevil to get some stats.....

Solars do have legendary actions, but it is a pretty rare edition where Solars couldn't eat the Pit Fiend's and Balor's lunch (and it 1e, that was just about at the same time). I hope it doesn't come to this, but I think they might be going back to 1e-style celestials, where the Solars are basically the good equivalent to the demon lords and archdevils. If so, then Solars are a little underpowered (some lair actions would help and I am still hoping for some "servant of X god" templates that could steroid them up).

On the other hand, I have a theory of personal power and alignment that basically goes evil types need to keep a lot of power on hand, because treachery is common, and chaotic types need on hand power because they don't believe in investing it in social structures. By that theory, demon lords would be the most powerful nongod elites, and Solars would be the least powerful elites, so the Solar's power would actually be about right (bounded accuracy means 1 Solar + 20 Planetars > 1 demon lord + 6 Balors, and since the Planetars aren't going to stab the Solar in the back, he/she can afford to spend the juice to elevate a bunch of devas into Planetars, whereas the demon lord needs to keep that power for him/herself, thus having fewer strong minions).

 

[The Crimson Binome]

A number of demon lords have stats in Out of the Abyss. I admit to being surprised (and disappointed) at not seeing any official archdevil stats yet, especially since Asmodeus got statted up in the playtest and Rise of Tiamat was a good excuse for at least one archdevil to get some stats.....

Is that canon? Or official? Or whatever the term for it is?

It's a bit weird if they include important general-use information in a published adventure, and then expect people to reference it. I mean, most people don't use published adventures.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I hope you don't mind me responding to this point here. It caught my attention because I love beholders:

I get the impression from the MM that second bananas do not get legendary actions. All of the monsters with legendary actions are things that are the top dogs, the leaders, the big kahunas of their organization. Dragons, liches and beholders all think that they are the most powerful beings in existence.

Historically in D&D, beholders are second bananas. Hive Mothers and Overlords are the top dogs, with dozens or more of common beholders working for each Hive Mother. Who knows if they'll ever make an appearance in 5E products though.

Adult dragons are second bananas too, and they also get legendary actions. Ancients are on top.

My impression is that the reason the MM doesn't give legendary actions to demons and devils is purely gamist: the MM writers expect balors and pit fiends to come with fiendish armies, and handing out legendary actions would make those fights too busy instead of not busy enough. Dragons on the other hand are intended to be used as solos, so they get legendary actions to fill out their action economy so players won't get bored with the monster doing nothing 80% of the time at the table. (I.e. legendary actions fix a problem introduced by cyclic initiative, but it is not the only possible or even the best fix.)

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Is that canon? Or official? Or whatever the term for it is?

It's a bit weird if they include important general-use information in a published adventure, and then expect people to reference it. I mean, most people don't use published adventures.

What do you mean "expect people to reference it"? The stats are there, in Out of the Abyss. It exists, it's by WotC. It's "official", for some values of "official," but the only thing that's officially official is what you as DM say is official. If you decide to stat up Orcus completely differently, Mike Mearls isn't going to complain or tell you you're running your game wrong.

Maybe Internet posters will "expect people to reference it" for Internet discussions, but that's not real gaming, that's just the Internet.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Or the players feel cheesy, because they had to exploit the broken grappling rules, and the whole thing is just as dissatisfying as if he'd died in two rounds. Except this time it's disappointment in the game, rather than just in one enemy.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you think the grappling rules are cheesey and broken, don't use them. Find another clever way to beat Strahd despite his mobility and his legendary resistances. I can think of three off the top of my head that don't involve grappling.

The point is that, hopefully, when faced with a strong enemy using a strong tactic you don't just give up and throw your dice at the DM and walk out. Hopefully you at least come up with a plan in-character and execute it. You're into roleplaying; this argument should appeal to you. Die hard!