D&D 5E (2014) When Fiends Attack: Are Balors, Pit Fiends and Ultraloths too weak?

[MostlyDm]

The players won't have fun if they die or have to run from the last fight because an awful power limits most or all their options in combat.

I'm not convinced that's true.

Upthread, someone else was also talking about how players expect a "boss" fight, that Strahd cannot deliver... with the implication being that such a boss fight ought to be an epic slugfest.

But again, I just don't know that I buy that.

More story time, I guess. A few years back I played (not DMed) in a short-lived play-by-post Pathfinder game, the Rise of the Runelords path. I'm not a fan of PF, or most adventure paths, but I liked the folks I was playing with.

At the end of one of the first significant dungeons, at... level 2? I think? We found the big Boss of that dungeon: An Imp.

Or maybe a Quasit, I can't remember.

It trounced us. Nobody died... it didn't do enough damage, really. But we couldn't do anything to it... between flight, natural invisibility, and low-level spells to control us in various ways, we spent many, many rounds ineffectually trying to deal with the thing. I got in a brief grapple, the closest we got to taking it out, but then it hit me with a sleep spell and got away again.

Ultimately, we had to retreat with our tail between our legs. Anticlimactic? Perhaps. Frustrating? Definitely. But awful? Unfun? No way! That's the game! We left and plotted our revenge. Or would have, if the game hadn't died out a few weeks later.

 

[Helldritch]

[MENTION=6780269]dco[/MENTION]
Strahd will never ever fight the pc head on. He will ambush. He will retreat. He will come back with help.
He will enforce the 6 to 8 encounters per day so that your players will have to spend ressources. Your players should never be able to fight Strahd fresh from rest. Once they try to take on him, he will not allow them to rest. He will harrass them through out their rest where ever it might be.

Strahd through his spies will know the PCs' strength and weaknesses and he will use that against them. He will know if they have the sunsword or the symbol or Ravenkind. He will not allow the players to choose the battle ground, he will choose it himself.
P239 of the CoS book says that whenever Strahd is encountered outside the Tarroka reading he will be accompanied minions. Only on a 19-20 will you see no minions. That leaves us with many many possible fights/reinforcement.

Fighting Strahd is a war of attrition. There will be no glorious charge, no duel to death, no clear cut way to beat him. My first group beat Strahd after 12 non-keyed encounters (with the keyed encounters it must have been about 17 or 18!). They finaly found his tomb and slew him there. The characters were exhausted, beaten and had no more ressources to have even a single encounter and Rahadin came in and attacked! Rahadin felled the paladin and the bard but was finaly defeated by the cleric's Sacred Flame cantrip. All characters survived but barely. Was that an anti climatic end? By all account it was not. The players were proud of their accomplishment. They still talk about it 6 months later. My second group is just starting CoS now. They talked a bit with the other players and they are already scared of what Strahd can do! They are in the Death House and they are already saying that this place is madness and they only fought a doll, 5 shadows, 1 specter, 4 ghouls and 2 ghasts. They still have to fight the house itself and they all started at level 3 (zero experience but when they get out, they will have the required xp for their level). I almost killed two of the players even if they played flawlessly (I was a bit lucky on the dice). Now they are trying to take a short rest. We will see if they succeed or not.

A BBEG does not have to be a fight with only one critter. It can be preceded by any number of fights/hazards/traps and god knows what. It is the DM's call to make a fight as hard or as easy as he wants it.

I have an up to date copy of all character sheets.
I test most of the fights to see if they are adequate in the difficulty I set them.
If a fight is too easy or too hard, I make the necessary modifications.
Yes the players know their characters way more than I do. But any DM worth his salt can make these kind of simulations.
If you want your group to do a 5mwd, test the fight. If it is too easy, modify the monster accordingly so that the fight turns a bit more as you want it to be. If after modifications you kill the group in your simulation, retry it. Remodify it if necessary. A DM's job is not an easy one. The only two pieces of advice I give to "young" DM are:" Know the rules." and "Prepare a lot". With experience, the work will be done faster but will be required nonetheless.

 

[Demetrios1453]

I have the vague (and second hand) impression that WotC eventually plans to put the AP monsters in their own book, but if they are waiting to get 300 pages worth of them, it could be a while.

I am trying to keep a list of current official monsters, spells, classes, etc. on the first page of http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?491069-5e-Lists-of-Monsters-Spells-Races-Feats-Etc. It also includes the Tome of Beasts and 5th Edition Foes, but those are easy to edition out (the file is Excel).

Someone at WotC (Mearls, I believe) said that they will eventually reprint monsters from APs in non-adventure sourcebooks (I don't have the exact source for this; it's buried in one of the pre-VGtM monster book discussions). Granted, there was no time limit mentioned, so who knows how long that would be. I very much hope that we do see at least the important "classic" monsters (derro and ixitxachitl from OotA, mongrelfolk from CoS, and yakfolk from STK) reprinted in sourcebook bestiaries at least relatively soon - while I'm glad you are keeping track of the monsters with your list, it's much less cluttered for a DM if monsters aren't scattered about in various APs and are instead all collected in sourcebooks...

(As for the elemental lords and demon princes, they should be reprinted too, but in something like a planar handbook or some sort of high-level foe sourcebook)

 

[Zardnaar]

I pointed out most monsters are to weak literally years ago on the WotC boards. Not sure if I was the 1st one to call it as we hit level 13 or 14 very fast with 2-5 sessions a week at one point.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

Someone at WotC (Mearls, I believe) said that they will eventually reprint monsters from APs in non-adventure sourcebooks (I don't have the exact source for this; it's buried in one of the pre-VGtM monster book discussions). Granted, there was no time limit mentioned, so who knows how long that would be. I very much hope that we do see at least the important "classic" monsters (derro and ixitxachitl from OotA, mongrelfolk from CoS, and yakfolk from STK) reprinted in sourcebook bestiaries at least relatively soon - while I'm glad you are keeping track of the monsters with your list, it's much less cluttered for a DM if monsters aren't scattered about in various APs and are instead all collected in sourcebooks...

(As for the elemental lords and demon princes, they should be reprinted too, but in something like a planar handbook or some sort of high-level foe sourcebook)

If someone from WotC ever reads this, they have my vote for the AP monster reprint book (or books). With relatively few AP's out now, it isn't so bad, but I can definitely see it being a nuisance to find an AP monster's stat block in a couple of years (part of the reason my list has source and page # on it)

 

[Chaosmancer]

Okay, this endless circling about Strahd does not seem to be getting us anywhere. So here is a different question.

What monsters in the Monster Manual do actually work really well for the Epic Slugfest final fight?

I don't think anything less than a well-prepared Lich or other spellcasting NPC could do it without minions, but what monsters do we have who can stand next to the party and have the staying power to fight them for 3 or more rounds?

 

[Charles Rampant]

Tarrasque, hopefully!

 

[Barolo]

Okay, this endless circling about Strahd does not seem to be getting us anywhere. So here is a different question.

What monsters in the Monster Manual do actually work really well for the Epic Slugfest final fight?

I don't think anything less than a well-prepared Lich or other spellcasting NPC could do it without minions, but what monsters do we have who can stand next to the party and have the staying power to fight them for 3 or more rounds?

Elder dragons with spells and lair actions? Maybe the solar? Kraken, Olympian, the Tarrasque, I guess they could all last at least three rounds. I like the sphinx, specially with lair powers, but I guess it does not have enough staying power.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

What monsters in the Monster Manual do actually work really well for the Epic Slugfest final fight?

Anything with legendary and/or lair actions that is itself at least a "deadly" encounter according to the DMG's encounter building guidelines - though that still comes with the caveat that the encounter won't be as thrilling as it could be if it is arranged in such a way that the PCs are going to have their prime resources ready to go nova and no expectation that they will need to reserve at least some amount of their resources for upcoming challenges.

For an example: A Death Tyrant in it's lair is a potential "Epic Slugfest final fight" for a party of four 10th level characters.

 

[dco]

Fighting Strahd is a war of attrition. There will be no glorious charge, no duel to death, no clear cut way to beat him.

He can be like a mix of Spiderman, Predator and Casper if you want to use him that way, instead of a war it is a hunt where players end dying.