When is a Paladin better to have in a fight than a Fighter?

[Felix]

And if the mounts were equal I don't see how the Paladin would outshine a mounted Fighter. Of course, the mounts are rarely equal but still....

You miss the point... a bad mamma-jamma for a mount is an integral part of the paladin class. It makes them more powerful. Saying they should have equal mounts is like saying they should have an equal number of feats. Feats are a fighter's schtick, and the mount is part of the paladin's schtick.

So when the fighter and paladin are mounted, the paladin will win out.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Nobody's forgotten that paladins are spellcasters. They just remember that most paladin spellcasting doesn't make much difference.

Bull's strength is well past its prime by the earliest a paladin could cast it (8th level)--fighters will almost certainly have gauntlets of ogre power by then (as will paladins). They're getting close to the levels they might have a belt of giant strength. Shield Other? That's supposed to be a benefit? Magic Circle vs. Evil? Nifty but by the time a paladin gets it, the cleric or wizard is probably tossing it off without thought because he's got 3rd level slots to burn. (And a ring of protection +2 is pretty standard by that point too). Dispel Magic? At a paladin's caster level? You've got to be kidding?!? At 12th level, a paladin casts as a 6th level caster. Even being generous and assuming he's only casting against a 10th level caster (he could easily be going up against clvl 14 baddies), he'll need to roll a 21 on 1d20+6. Not very good odds to say the least. Dispel Evil is sometimes nice but doesn't seem particularly overpowering.

There are a few paladin spells worth mentioning: Divine Sacrifice and Bless Weapon (also Lesser Restoration as a 1st level spell which can be very useful when facing ability damage and borrowing some 1st level pearls of power). But even Divine Sacrifice is primarily useful when it is shared with the paladin's mount.

Paladin spellcasting doesn't even come close to evening the gap between a paladin and a fighter.

Has everyone completely forgotten that a Paladin is also a spellcaster? Throw into the mix a little Bull's Strength, Shield Other, Magic Circle vs. Evil, and a liberal helping of Dispel Magic and Dispel Evil, and your Paladin can deal with any opponent. Your fighter simply can't match up to that.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Paladin spellcasting doesn't even come close to evening the gap between a paladin and a fighter.

I agree. Even though I love the paladin class and am currently playing one in my only ongoing game, Paladin spellcasting is very trivial. I really don't see why, on top of being limited to 4th-level spells, and on top of gaining access to those spell levels far after primary spellcasters, the designers decided to cut a paladin's (and ranger's) caster level in half. It makes many spells that come up more insulting than useful. Along with the examples Elder-Basilisk gives, my favorite insult is Greater Magic Weapon. A paladin needs to be 16th-level to gain a +2 bonus from it. 16th level. Oi.

That said, a paladin can match the fighter under specific circumstances (mounted), and for a short time (while his smites last), otherwise the fighter outdamages him, which I don't have a problem with. If a paladin could always outdamage a fighter, there'd be no point to the fighter class since at 20th-level a paladin can also Lay On Hands for somewhere around 120 hit points, and (assuming access to the Vest of Resistance) have astronomical saves.

 

[Klaus]

This caster level comment is making me think of extending my house rule for ranger animal companions to ranger's and paladin's caster levels (caster level = class level -3, not class level/2).

 

[Mac Callum]

This caster level comment is making me think of extending my house rule for ranger animal companions to ranger's and paladin's caster levels (caster level = class level -3, not class level/2).

Hey, that's a good rule and dovetails nicely with the Paladin's Turn Undead ability - which as others have noted is nice without outshing the Cleric.

It's always bothered me that a Ranger & Paladin's spells were hardly worth having by the time you got them. Kind of a faux class ability, really.

 

[ruleslawyer]

IMHO, the halved caster level and limited abilities by level (at least in 3.0) of a ranger and paladin come from the fact that they were probably originally designed as PrCs for the new edition. That's conjecture, but it logically would make some sense given how they (especially the paladin) are designed. IMHO, the paladin makes perfect sense if you either a) allow it as a 10-level fighter PrC and give it spellcasting and ability progression along the lines of the holy liberator or 2) make it a fighter/cleric PrC as it works either in Unearthed Arcana or in some of the house-ruled paladin PrCs that have been floating around the web practically since the release of the 3.0 PHB. It's really the 20-level nature of the class that I find a handicap, IMHO. A fighter/paladin/cleric, or a paladin/Fist of Raziel, is actually quite competitive with a fighter (arguably even more powerful) against evil opponents, and absolutely superior against single, magically-capable, evil opponents. The problem is that the Pal20, sorta like the Ftr20, isn't a very viable character build.

 

[Ottergame]

I am ready for the word pokeX to die already.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

a paladin/Fist of Raziel, is actually quite competitive with a fighter (arguably even more powerful) against evil opponents,

Looking over the Fist of Raziel PrC, I'm curious why you think so. Nothing in it seems to drastically change a PC's power level in comparison with a Paladin20.

 

[ForceUser]

Looking over the Fist of Raziel PrC, I'm curious why you think so. Nothing in it seems to drastically change a PC's power level in comparison with a Paladin20.

Actually, I'd argue the fighter 1/cleric 4/prestige paladin 7/fist of raziel 10 is a pretty potent combination since he's a paladin who also happens to have the spellcasting ability of an 18th-level cleric.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Actually, I'd argue the fighter 1/cleric 4/prestige paladin 7/fist of raziel 10 is a pretty potent combination since he's a paladin who also happens to have the spellcasting ability of an 18th-level cleric.

I don't disagree. My question was regarding a Paladin20 vs. a Paladin10/Fist of Raziel10. Once you throw cleric levels in there to use with the Fist of Raziel, things get better. Indeed, it struck me that the cleric would benefit the most from the Fist of Raziel.

But with a Paladin/Fist of Raziel, the Fist of Raziel's "+1 spellcasting level" only boosts Paladin spellcasting, which makes it practically a non-ability.