When is an arrow not an arrow?

[GMMichael]

I haven't met a player who enjoys counting arrows. A sword, however, is fairly easy to count. You swing it around, but it generally doesn't leave your hand. Arrows, however, routinely fly away from your person, leaving the distinct impression that sooner or later, you'll run out of them. Unless you're Legolas. And not in this scene.

But as I'm writing combat rules, and realizing that a sword hit doesn't have to cause damage, and a sword miss can cause damage, I also realized:

A missed arrow can cause damage, as well as an arrow that isn't even fired.

So please bestow upon me how some RPGs go about NOT counting arrows, how they might decide that the archer has run out of arrows, and whether those rules lead to problems of verisimilitude.

NOTE: this question applies to bullets and blaster charges as well. And what's Morrus up to over at What's Old Is New?

 

[aramis erak]

Several treat "no ammunition left" as a fumble result. (Especially Fate games and cortex plus games, eg: Firefly)
This can cause all kinds of narrative disjuncts, especially if a crit or skill roll can restore them.

EG: Jayne is fighting the pirate queen, Asonté. Jayne rolls a bunch of 1's, and 2x 10's. I assess him a "low on ammo d10" consequence, and narrate that he got wickedly trigger happy in order to wing her.
Later, Jayne shoots her again. He rolls 2 more 1's, but I also rolled a 1. Being the defender in that roll, I get to buy first, and buy the gun out of ammo, stepping up to "D12+"... Jayne could spend a PP to buy my 1's, and get more ammo, narrating either stealing a clip for Vera from my gear, or having a spare clip, or having stashed some outside each airlock. (It's forbidden to do a "Oh, no you don't" direct cancel - it has to be a "yes, and" or "yes, but" type situation.)
In another case, I bought a couple 1's and instead started a countdown. Each action steps up the countdown, and when it's done, it's done. Starting the count indicates only 5 actions of fire left....

The problem becomes narrating how the ammo is recovered.

 

[Hand of Evil]

In my games this is all communication with the players, as I the DM, keep track of the arrows my players have and if they don't tell me they have replenished them, they can find themselves out of luck. Simple check-off sheet and statement before start of session and at the end of the session and sometime in session; "anyone have anything they want to declare?" The check off includes, checking quality of armor, camp setup (which is a number of steps, setting up guard, getting fire wood, tying up the horses, getting the cook equipment out, setting any alarms/traps, etc.). During the game I will announce to players when to let them know when low on arrows 20, 10, 5 but this is part of campaign setup that I work out with them, I always let them know at 10.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

But as I'm writing combat rules, and realizing that a sword hit doesn't have to cause damage, and a sword miss can cause damage, I also realized:

A missed arrow can cause damage, as well as an arrow that isn't even fired.

If you've reached that level of abstraction, then there's no point in pretending that anything means anything. I would strongly suggest that you re-think this point, at least as far back as requiring an arrow to be fired before it can cause any damage.

As for solving the problem of counting arrows, that comes down to the setting. If you're high fantasy, then you can create magic arrows out of thin air (either like a spell, or from a magic quiver). If you're sci-fi, then you just need a super efficient energy source that gives your laser hundreds of shots before you need to re-charge.

 

[pemerton]

So please bestow upon me how some RPGs go about NOT counting arrows, how they might decide that the archer has run out of arrows, and whether those rules lead to problems of verisimilitude.

In Burning Wheel, running out of expendable gear (which can include arrows) is handled via a "die of fate" roll - if, after your check, a d6 comes up 1 then you've used your last bit of whatever it was (healing herbs, ammunition, etc).

Issue of verisimilitude are meant to be handled via other elements of the system - eg if a character is on a battled field and the DoF comes up 1, then a simple Scavenging check should be enough to replenish the quiver. Or if it is already established that the character has an essentially unlimited supply of ammunition (eg is in a room full of stands of arrows while unleashing with his/her bow) then the DoF roll would not be required.

 

[Jan van Leyden]

If you're prepared to roll the extra die for this, you might also define something like "preparedness". If the character took time to shop for arrows or to fletch his own, you might change the die.

Prepared characters: Roll d20 with each shoot; 1 means out of arrows. In the second encounter, change to d12 instead, and so on.

Moderately prepared characters: Start with d10.

Unprepared characters: Start with d6.

If a character spends time to collect his things after the encounter, the die may be increased again.

 

[GMMichael]

In my games this is all communication with the players, as I the DM, keep track of the arrows my players have

Well, that solves the problem of players keeping track!

If you've reached that level of abstraction, then there's no point in pretending that anything means anything. I would strongly suggest that you re-think this point, at least as far back as requiring an arrow to be fired before it can cause any damage.

Strongly accepted! I know, this is a little Dungeon World wu-wu, but it's strongly tied to the definition of damage. I don't treat damage as disrepair or a physical condition causing inefficient operation. Damage is just a counter that fills up a damage pool. Exceed max damage, and you become disabled.

So how does NOT firing an arrow cause damage? Well, if I have a bow pointed at me, I'm going to run around like an idiot, trying to become a harder target to hit. This could be exhausting. And even if I find some cover, I can't just hide behind it and expect no pursuit. I have to peek out, move to different cover, and possibly twist my ankle or hit my head while dodging or changing cover. The longer I do all this - or the more damage I take - is the closer I get to becoming physically disabled.

Now I'm asking this, maybe you are too: if damage isn't using the normal definition, why do larger weapons cause more damage?

I guess the short answer is that, to the untrained hand, larger weapons will disable your opponent SOONER than smaller weapons. A dagger, let's say, can still cause as much damage as a claymore, but there's training or experience required, mostly perks: weapon training, specialize (melee), and backstabber, to give some examples.

If you're prepared to roll the extra die for this, you might also define something like "preparedness". If the character took time to shop for arrows or to fletch his own, you might change the die.

Good call. Since I'm a minimalist, I'd want to try to tie preparedness to the dice already being rolled, though. Say, when your d20 roll is equal or lower than your damage roll, you've run out of arrows. That way, a low roll (unfavorable) is required to run out of arrows, and high damage makes it more likely that you've spent your last shot. This solves Saelorn's problem too, because to cause significant damage with an arrow and run out of arrows requires you to have actually fired your last. Hmm...

 

[Crothian]

I like how Dungeon World does it. If one gets a partial success they have options and one of those options is to subtract ammo. Otherwise roll well or just don't choose that options and one can always recovers and keep using ammunition.

 

[Morrus]

If you're prepared to roll the extra die for this, you might also define something like "preparedness". If the character took time to shop for arrows or to fletch his own, you might change the die.

Prepared characters: Roll d20 with each shoot; 1 means out of arrows. In the second encounter, change to d12 instead, and so on.

Moderately prepared characters: Start with d10.

Unprepared characters: Start with d6.

If a character spends time to collect his things after the encounter, the die may be increased again.

That's exactly how WOIN did it it in early playtest iterations (with larger starting dice for different weapons). Playtesters hated, hated, hated it - like 100% feedback. Not one person liked it!

 

[The Crimson Binome]

So how does NOT firing an arrow cause damage? Well, if I have a bow pointed at me, I'm going to run around like an idiot, trying to become a harder target to hit. This could be exhausting. And even if I find some cover, I can't just hide behind it and expect no pursuit. I have to peek out, move to different cover, and possibly twist my ankle or hit my head while dodging or changing cover. The longer I do all this - or the more damage I take - is the closer I get to becoming physically disabled.

You also need to think about what sorts of things are required to repair that damage. Does everyone recover to full, once combat is over? If so, then a lot of that damage was mental stress and temporary fatigue and abstract positioning. Does it take a week of bed rest to heal a single point? Then HP loss probably doesn't include temporary positioning or short-term fatigue.