When is D&D not D&D?

[Barastrondo]

My definition of D&D includes the D&D that began with red-box Basic, Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, and their offspring Dungeons and Dragons 3e/3.5e. Like others, I don't think the things that make 4e less like AD&D make it "not D&D."

 

[JustinM]

This is really not that difficult, or it shouldn't be. 4e is D&D, same as all the other editions. It doesn't matter what some people might say, because it won't change the reality of the situation even a little bit.

Let's try an example from a different angle:

This is a 1961 Chevrolet Impala SS.

This is a 2006 Chevrolet Impala SS.

They're completely different vehicles, not only superficially, but also fundamentally. The only fundamental things they really have in common is that they were both produced by the same company and feature internal combustion engines that run on gasoline as their means of propulsion.

But they're both Impalas. Nothing in the world will change that no matter how much different they look or feel.

EDIT: And because of people's heightened sensitivities these days, I guess I have to mention that I'm not trying to compare any older edition to a clunky old boat of a car, nor am I trying to compare 4e to a sleek new vehicle. Conversely, neither am I trying to compare an old edition to a classic vehicle and 4e to an unimaginative, cookie-cutter conveyance that looks like all the other cars on the road.

And it's pathetic, frankly, that I need to add that disclaimer, but without it, I know full well I'd be accused of any and all of what I just mentioned.

 

[WayneLigon]

nope...PCs and NPCs don't have Hit Points in True20.

I think you're going to see what we consider to be 'hit points' modified to some degree in 4E. I don't think we'll go even as far as the condition track in SAGA but I'm thinking there will be some other feature tied to hit points. I look for them to exit around about 6E.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I look for them to exit around about 6E.

Yeah because by then the automatic damage tracker chip in the base of your "Official D&D Minature (TM)" which is required to play will be calculating the damage for you, and simply making your mini fall over when it's supposed to.

 

[Cadfan]

Yeah because by then the automatic damage tracker chip in the base of your "Official D&D Minature (TM)" which is required to play will be calculating the damage for you, and simply making your mini fall over when it's supposed to.

Oh, come now.

The automatic tracker chip will be implanted in your skin. YOU will fall over when you are supposed to.

 

[Ranger REG]

So when is D&D no longer D&D, but another game?

1. When we use Mega-Damage and Mega-Damage Capacity.
2. When we no longer use a d20 for rolls, saving throws, and checks.
3. When success is no longer determined by "meet-or-beat" method but "roll-under."

 

[IanArgent]

I actually will be a little disappointed if the condition track doesn't make it to 4ed. A way to degrade (N)PC performance by damage short of death? And a way to put non-hit-point damage on them? I love it already. (Of course, I thought that the condition track of Shadowrun was one of the best things that game had).

IMO D&D is hampered somewhat by having no degradation from non-lethal levels of damage.

 

[pawsplay]

I think there's something weird about streamlining play toward a moving goalpost. That is, optimizing play for a setting you're changing. So I don't really think of 4e so much as a refinement as a new D&D, at least as different as Basic D&D from AD&D 2.5. That being the case, it will still be D&D if fighters, thieves, and magic-users get together and slay orcs, skeletons, and dire rats. The armaments should be medieval, the world high fantasy, the action violent and visceral, and the magic bizarre and unpredictable. Things lurk below the ground best not thought of.

If Warhammer were published by WotC and they called it D&D, I would be willing to accept that. LOTRRPG, obviously not (no skeletons or dire rats).

 

[Aloïsius]

and the magic bizarre and unpredictable.

How is d&d magic unpredictable ?

 

[pawsplay]

How is d&d magic unpredictable ?

Let me put it this way... who invented rope trick? Or wall of iron? Don't you find some of the spells a little strange?

A lot of fantasy treats magic in a more theurgical way, or like some kind of psychic power. D&D is Vancian, which means magic goes kaboom and vavoom. A spell does one specific thing, which is not always a handy way for that spell to work.

So if spells became more like GURPS Magic or Ars Magica, that would be less D&D to me. To me, D&D is "I have a spell that summons a room-sized mass of indestructible black tentacles that strangle people."