D&D 5E (2014) When PCs Burst into a Room of Unsuspecting Enemies

[Diamabel]

If they dont make a stealth check I assume the monsters hear them coming. So normal initiative. Otherwise though I would suggest giving the PCs adv on initiative check. But it depends on the situation, need to assess on a case by case basis.

It could just be some of their orc buddies coming in for a snack!

Pretty much- it matters quite a bit what state of mind/awareness the monsters are in when PCs burst into the room. If they are just chilling out, cooking an (awful) Orcish feast.. they probably aren't exactly prepared in any way, shape or form for an immediate armed attack - they'd have no real reason to expect such, even if they heard a bit of noise.

 

[delericho]

Background: PCs know enemies are in a room. Enemies are unaware of PCs and not even ready for combat (playing cards, cooking, arguing, etc). PCs decide to burst into the room and attack suddenly, like a SEAL team. Not using stealth, so technically no surprise.

No.

If the PCs are operating "like a SEAL team", then they should be making Stealth checks. If they don't make such checks, or they fail those checks, then they are making sufficient noise for those inside the room to hear them, and you should proceed with an initiative check as normal.

Question 1: Do you penalize the enemies on their initiative check (disadvantage), or give the PCs advantage, or neither? If giving advantage or disadvantage, do you roll two d20’s (DM discretion, PHB page 173), or add or subtract 5 (or some other number) to the roll (similar to passive perception checks (PHB page 177)?

As I said above, neither. In answer to the second part of your question, though, when (dis)advantage applies, you roll two d20s. The exception is when using passive Perception, but that doesn't apply here.

Question 2: Would you set the PCs up in the room, or outside?

Outside.

Question 3: Assume the enemies get the highest initiative roll. Do you allow them to get in the first round of attacks?

Yes. Be it because the PCs made a noise, sheer random chance, or because the opponent is a twitchy sod, he somehow gets to his weapon first. That is, after all, what winning initiative means!

Question 4: Would your answers change if the enemies were unaware but more alert and prepared, such as on guard duty?

No. The enemies being on guard duty may make it harder to gain surprise against them, but given that the scenario as described explicitly rules out surprise here, that doesn't apply.

It does help differentiate different levels of enemy awareness and alertness.

I tend to agree that it's a weakness that the game doesn't really differentiate levels of awareness.

However, virtually all adventuring takes place in hostile environments - the PCs find themselves raiding dangerous tombs, they face bandits in their lairs, they adventure in a wilderness filled with perils, and so on. So, outside of some acknowledged "home base" it makes sense that they would keep their wits about them - even when 'unprepared' they're still alert to the possibility of danger.

And what applies to the PCs applies to their enemies as well. They might be among 'friends', but they're still in an environment where an attack can come at any time - from the PCs, from a rival gang... heck, from the guy across the table who might have seen that card getting palmed.

 

[ThePaladinWay]

No.

If the PCs are operating "like a SEAL team", then they should be making Stealth checks. If they don't make such checks, or they fail those checks, then they are making sufficient noise for those inside the room to hear them, and you should proceed with an initiative check as normal.

Well, to clarify again, I'm assuming they moved quietly into position by the door (successfully used stealth or were very quiet approaching the door and not required by the DM to do a stealth check), so like a SEAL team, they did recon, got quietly into position to strike, then hit hard and fast.

I might add, I disagree with any rules approach/interpretation that does not distinguish between an open doorway and a closed door. As DM I will make sure to use my judgment and prerogative to differentiate somehow. It's a lot harder to sneak up to a room's entrance and burst in and catch defenders unprepared when the door is open (or there is no door) than when it is closed - especially when the door is a heavy door. At the very minimum there must be advantage to the PCs or disadvantage to the enemies applied somewhere. I'll stand by my decision to not require a stealth check by the party approaching the door in the situation as it actually played out given the full circumstances (and they did specify they were approaching quietly, however I was certainly looking for advice on how best to work the start of the combat (surprise, initiative, PC placement)

Also, as already noted, I feel some differentiation for different levels of preparedness is appropriate and necessary, and better for storytelling too, so as DM I do not want the encounter mechanics to be identical.

I am getting a lot of good ideas from this thread, so thanks again everyone.

 

[KarinsDad]

Fwiw, this is almost exactly how the actual surprise rules work.

No, not quite. There is a big difference between not being able to move, use an action, or a reaction due to initiative in the second round not yet coming up (i.e. surprised) and being stunned.

 

[KarinsDad]

Well, to clarify again, I'm assuming they moved quietly into position by the door (successfully used stealth or were very quiet approaching the door and not required by the DM to do a stealth check), so like a SEAL team, they did recon, got quietly into position to strike, then hit hard and fast.

I might add, I disagree with any rules approach/interpretation that does not distinguish between an open doorway and a closed door. As DM I will make sure to use my judgment and prerogative to differentiate somehow. It's a lot harder to sneak up to a room's entrance and burst in and catch defenders unprepared when the door is open (or there is no door) than when it is closed - especially when the door is a heavy door. At the very minimum there must be advantage to the PCs or disadvantage to the enemies applied somewhere. I'll stand by my decision to not require a stealth check by the party approaching the door in the situation as it actually played out given the full circumstances (and they did specify they were approaching quietly, however I was certainly looking for advice on how best to work the start of the combat (surprise, initiative, PC placement)

Also, as already noted, I feel some differentiation for different levels of preparedness is appropriate and necessary, and better for storytelling too, so as DM I do not want the encounter mechanics to be identical.

I am getting a lot of good ideas from this thread, so thanks again everyone.

In 5E, opening a door is typically no big deal. Each PC/NPC is allowed to interact with an object once on their turn for free. So, a PC who has a free hand can turn the handle of the door and open it. It will be a bit more problematic for a PC who has both hands full (with weapon and shield, or weapon and weapon).


There really is no reason for special rules, advantage, disadvantage, or anything else here. Even heavy doors are designed to just open. The easiest adjudication is to have PCs roll init and start outside during a surprise round and see what they do with that extra round. Have the players tell (or show with miniatures) you their placement.

Your adjudication of no stealth checks is totally fine. If the environment precludes a lot of noise from being heard behind the door, no big deal. No stealth checks needed if you as DM determine that the NPCs cannot really hear them anyway or would ignore them if they did.

 

[delericho]

Well, to clarify again, I'm assuming they moved quietly into position by the door (successfully used stealth or were very quiet approaching the door and not required by the DM to do a stealth check), so like a SEAL team, they did recon, got quietly into position to strike, then hit hard and fast.

That's fine. Have them make a Stealth check to "get queitly into position to strike", and take it from there.

Unless you think there's simply no chance for them to fail to do so (which is unlikely, but it's your call). In which case, give them an auto-success on the Stealth check.

Whether it's because they pass the check or because they have auto-success, this would give them surprise, which the rules already cover.

I might add, I disagree with any rules approach/interpretation that does not distinguish between an open doorway and a closed door.

If you believe it's a sufficient impediment, that door could provide disadvantage on the enemy's Perception check (or passive Perception) that opposes that Stealth check.

I'll stand by my decision to not require a stealth check by the party approaching the door...

That's fine. But where you've gone wrong, IMO, is that you've decided that because they didn't make a Stealth check they can't have surprise... and then you need some sort of ruling to patch the problem caused because you're not using the surprise rules.

Just use the rules for surprise, and everything else will just work.

 

[KarinsDad]

That's fine. Have them make a Stealth check to "get queitly into position to strike", and take it from there.

Unless you think there's simply no chance for them to fail to do so (which is unlikely, but it's your call). In which case, give them an auto-success on the Stealth check.

Whether it's because they pass the check or because they have auto-success, this would give them surprise, which the rules already cover.

He's already doing the latter and hand waving away stealth checks. Which is appropriate in situations where the NPCs would ignore any noises they heard, or when it's difficult for noise to make it through a closed door.

If you believe it's a sufficient impediment, that door could provide disadvantage on the enemy's Perception check (or passive Perception) that opposes that Stealth check.

As other people are suggesting, do what works for him, don't be a slave to the rules. If there is no stealth check, no need for wasting time with disadvantaged rolls.

 

[ThePaladinWay]

Just use the rules for surprise, and everything else will just work.

Good advice, as you and others have suggested!

 

[delericho]

He's already doing the latter and hand waving away stealth checks. Which is appropriate in situations where the NPCs would ignore any noises they heard, or when it's difficult for noise to make it through a closed door.

Which is absolutely fine, except that back in the OP he said:

PCs decide to burst into the room and attack suddenly, like a SEAL team. Not using stealth, so technically no surprise.

Which is what's causing the problems here, because he's now looking for an appropriate penalty for a group of enemies who are taken unawares and yet, somehow, not surprised.

Just. Use. Surprise.

And if you feel you can't use surprise because they're not making Stealth checks, then for the love of Pelor have them make Stealth checks!

 

[ThePaladinWay]

As other people are suggesting, do what works for him, don't be a slave to the rules. If there is no stealth check, no need for wasting time with disadvantaged rolls.

Also good advice

I appreciate all the suggestions by everyone!