When revised, should the Hero class now be called the Superhero?

You little demon you, that's a cool idea. Hmm. I'll have to bring it up with Russ. Two distinct ways to get powers, one which provides no BAB, saves, or HP, the other a class that you could advance in which would probably provide fewer HrPs comparably. Nice idea. I like it.
 

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Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
RangerWickett said:
You little demon you, that's a cool idea. Hmm. I'll have to bring it up with Russ. Two distinct ways to get powers, one which provides no BAB, saves, or HP, the other a class that you could advance in which would probably provide fewer HrPs comparably. Nice idea. I like it.

I'm not going to say anything.

OK, I will.

I HAD THAT ORIGINALLY!!!!! YOU PERSUADED ME TO REMOVE IT!

Grrr...... :)

:D
 
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He phrased his better. And, as you know, with age comes wisdom. What really made me like his idea is that one would be distinctly used for powers you have innately, while the other is used for powers you gain or increase while adventuring. Hmm.

But see, now I'm reminded again why I was opposed to it originally. Say you're 10th level and you get a personal meeting with God. God says, "As long as you don't cut your hair, you'll be super strong." Do you gain the innate super power abilities, or do you just gain a bunch of levels of Superhero?

Better to keep one mechanic, now that I think about it. Less confusion.
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
I agree with the idea of "one system, less confusion." Personally, I like the (super)hero class the way it is now. You get most of what other classes do (save for skills), but less of it (the bad saves, low BAB, low hit points, no weapon/armor proficiencies), with the Hero points making up for that.

Taking away the hit points, BAB, and low saves, and it is effectively nothing but an ECL increase. No one will pay experience points for that...especially not at higher levels when it takes more and more experience to earn a level.

Using powers the way the templates present already add a good way of introducing them as purely ECLs. I say if it aint broke, dont fix it.
 

Malacoda

First Post
Say you're 10th level and...

First, let me offer a counter-example, a theoretical d20 Modern game...

The group starts out with 1st level characters who would be inclined to investigate reports of odd people and creatures showing off strange powers. Cops, investigative reporterts, amateur paranormalists, and so on. They trace them back to a biotech company, and find that the company is doing government work into ability enhancement genetic research. They also find many other people are looking into it. The CEO of the company lets it slip that something went awry and calls a meeting of all the investigators, because they need some help cleaning up. Turns out the CEO is a powerful telepath (due to their own research), who plans on wiping their winds. An accident happens, though, and the latest batch of superhuman serum escapes into the ventilation system and everyone is cleared out except the CEO and the 50 odd people he brought in to mindwipe. The result is most of the people in the room are mutated and gain superhuman powers, barring the 10 or so that die from it. These are the first real batch of superhumans in the world, and some become villians and some become heroes.

The GM plans on everyone in the room gaining a template of powers. Essentially, most people, including the PCs, will gain one major power and 3 or so minor powers, covered by approximately 24 hero points. But, unless it makes sense for their powers, they do not become tougher, faster, more capable of attack or of evading attacks. In other words, no BAB, no hit points, no defense bonus and no save improvement. Those things just don’t make sense for this templated approach. Just because you gained the ability the read the minds of others and create a telekinetic shield doesn’t mean you should also become tougher and more able to shoot someone with a gun. Is this best served by spontaneous class levels? This is what the ECL approach covers.

The GM has also decided that these powers can be increased over time, as the characters learn to use them to their fullest potential, and the genetic alteration continues to run its course. Since these enhancements cover training and advancement, it is best served via class levels, which also grant save HD, saves and BAB, and skill points.

The origin and evolution. Origin is covered via ECLs, evolution via class levels.


Say you're 10th level and you get a personal meeting with God. God says, "As long as you don't cut your hair, you'll be super strong." Do you gain the innate super power abilities, or do you just gain a bunch of levels of Superhero?

Easy. To me, this is a template, and templates work best with ECLs. This situation doesn’t sound like it would grant hit dice, BAB, defense bonus or other class-based benefits.

Now, some situations might not be so cut and dried, but I still think with with the vast majority of super characters you can draw a line between origin and evolution. Some will have no origin, just evolution. Batman seems like a clear example. He is going to have levels of several standard classes, several advance classes, and one or more super classes to cover some of his extreme, larger-than-life abilities. He never had an “origin” package with ECLs. But, someone like Cyclops would. His origin is obvious, a mutant template that gives him his optic blast. His evolution is a number of normal and advanced classes, plus perhaps a few levels of a super class to show more power in his optic blast plus some comic-book style combat training.


Better to keep one mechanic, now that I think about it. Less confusion.

Confusion for whom? D20 anything is not a simple system. It’s not Champions or Rolemaster, but it also certainly isn’t Over the Edge or Ghostbusters. I really don’t think a split concept is going to be a problem for any real d20 fan. They are already used to picking and choosing races, classes, feats and prestige classes. If they can grok the point system for powers, I don’t see some rules for ECL being added to mix sending anyone over the edge into confusion. It has to be well written, but that’s not a problem, right? :)

FCtF is designed as a toolkit for d20 super heroes, and when it comes to toolkits, more options is a good thing. If all options are clearly detailed and explained, I don’t really see it being all that confusing. FCtF already outlines various approaches to starting and advancing super heroes, so adding comments on using ECLs, classes or both shouldn’t be too tough. Adding the ECL approach gives more flexibility, and gives the GM more tools to work with. This also allows FCtF to work as a racial or template construction system, where the current version adds too much baggage to make that feasible.

Plus, adding the ECL concept doesn’t necessarily require removing the previous method. I think there should be one or more generic super hero classes. Personally, I would like to see more, but I may very well be in the minority on that one. I think super versions of the standard classes would be cool (Tough Super Hero, Strong Super Hero, etc.), with BAB, Defense, saves and skills. No bonus feats and slower talent progression, but a few hero points each level.

But that’s just my opinion. I could be wrong.
 

Malacoda

First Post
After I mentioned making super versions of the basic d20 Modern classes I took a look at them again and realized that there really isn’t much wiggle room for adding hero points. So, instead, for games were the GM wanted to use ECLs then limit advancement in powers and didn’t want to use the Hero class, another option is a feat:

Extra Hero Points
Prerequisites: 1 or more powers gained from hero points.
Benefit: You gain 2 hero points. These points can be spent immediately or saved and used later, though only when you advance a level.
Special: Remember that you cannot spend more hero points than level + 3 on any one power. The GM may place limitations on how these hero points are spent.

In a superhero game this feat could be a bonus class feat for all the basic classes. Plus, it could be taken as a normal feat selection as well.
 




Great Cthulhu

First Post
"Four Color Hero" gets my vote as well.

Question I have is about d20 Modern and Defense. Is the Hero class going to altered to include a Defense rating as well? I mean you get BAB, why not Defense? Every modern class has some level of it.

Thanks
 

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