When status effects annoy the players
- Thread starter Morrus
- Start date
Mournblade94
Hero
What is it exactly players want in a game? Bad things happen in a game and that is part of the fun.
In Monopoly you might have to go to jail. If you HATE missing a turn than you should not play monopoly.
UNO can be lousy if the Skip card is played on you. Should we eliminate the skip card? No just do not play UNO if you hate being skipped.
Status effects are part of the game. The players should deal with it or find another hobby. Next the only characters that will be able to deal damage are PC's because receiving damage is frustrating. The new popular monster will be GOLEM: Mannequin because you can hit it and do damage but it cannot attack you back, so there will never ever be any player frustration.
In Monopoly you might have to go to jail. If you HATE missing a turn than you should not play monopoly.
UNO can be lousy if the Skip card is played on you. Should we eliminate the skip card? No just do not play UNO if you hate being skipped.
Status effects are part of the game. The players should deal with it or find another hobby. Next the only characters that will be able to deal damage are PC's because receiving damage is frustrating. The new popular monster will be GOLEM: Mannequin because you can hit it and do damage but it cannot attack you back, so there will never ever be any player frustration.
vagabundo
Adventurer
I like status effects - as a DM - they make a change from just damage reduction.
But if they are complaining then there is a problem. It might be best to work up a few synergistic effects, with ground terrain powers and the like. Make the status effect more interesting: maybe stunned characters consciousness gets sucked into the shadowfell for the round and they have to participate in a wrestling match with a shadow creature to save against it (use the skill challenge mechanic maybe.
You might try allowing players to roll all dice during combat. So they would roll to defend against a monster attack with D20+(10-AC) and the monster would have a flat DC attack for 10+their attack mod. At least they will feel involved.
And maybe they would like some bland easy encounters sometimes; just a bunch of standard goblins - who are terrorising some cats or children or whatever. It will make them feel like kick-ass heroes; wiping them out in a couple of rounds.
But if they are complaining then there is a problem. It might be best to work up a few synergistic effects, with ground terrain powers and the like. Make the status effect more interesting: maybe stunned characters consciousness gets sucked into the shadowfell for the round and they have to participate in a wrestling match with a shadow creature to save against it (use the skill challenge mechanic maybe.
You might try allowing players to roll all dice during combat. So they would roll to defend against a monster attack with D20+(10-AC) and the monster would have a flat DC attack for 10+their attack mod. At least they will feel involved.
And maybe they would like some bland easy encounters sometimes; just a bunch of standard goblins - who are terrorising some cats or children or whatever. It will make them feel like kick-ass heroes; wiping them out in a couple of rounds.
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awesomeocalypse
First Post
My players don't mind conditions that add tactical complexity, like slowed or prone or something. They force them to make tough choices, and while they often have resources with which to counteract those conditions, those resources are limited, so they make things more strategically interesting. They also add a lot of flavor to monsters. And for their part, the players enjoy laying these conditions down on the monster.
Its conditions like Stun which remove tactical complexity that drive them bonkers. "You would normally get to do interesting stuff, but now you can't." Isn't a fun complication, it just blows.
Once in a blue moon, breaking out a stun for a round can be useful. Its an "oh crap" signifier--if the monster drops a stun, they know he means business. And most players can handle losing a round here and there without it destroying their fun.
But stunning auras, at-will stuns, or multi-turn stuns? Just suck. I won't use them, and I prefer my player don't either. The save-ends stacking orbizard who drops sleep (even with the nerfs, can still guarantee like 2 rounds of failed saves) is an outright encounter destroyer.
Its conditions like Stun which remove tactical complexity that drive them bonkers. "You would normally get to do interesting stuff, but now you can't." Isn't a fun complication, it just blows.
Once in a blue moon, breaking out a stun for a round can be useful. Its an "oh crap" signifier--if the monster drops a stun, they know he means business. And most players can handle losing a round here and there without it destroying their fun.
But stunning auras, at-will stuns, or multi-turn stuns? Just suck. I won't use them, and I prefer my player don't either. The save-ends stacking orbizard who drops sleep (even with the nerfs, can still guarantee like 2 rounds of failed saves) is an outright encounter destroyer.
OchreJelly
First Post
The difference with Monopoly is that you usually get to try to get out of jail in another minute give-or-take. One of the issues in DND is that it can take a while for your turn to come around again, which can compound the frustration.
I don't want this to stray too edition-y, but we know some of the past editions this was compounded by SOD issues, or the long turns a caster player could take. They tried to mitigate some of these problems, but players can still take a lot of time on their turn in any edition if they are prone to it.
I want to stress that I don't think action denial is a bad thing, but as a DM you sometimes need to "take the temperature" of the players to ensure they aren't getting too many frustration factors thrown at them, or that certain players aren't left out for an hour at a stretch.
Fifth Element
Legend
Bah. Characters doing what they're supposed to be good at shouldn't be annoying!Conversely, that can also be very irritating for a DM
Obryn
Hero
I'm pretty shocked at the number of "Yer doin it rong!" and "Play something like Candyland, then, wussies!" posts. Srsly.
There's no wrong way to play D&D. I think it's fair to assume that Morrus isn't asking for an opinion on whether or not his players are a bunch of whiny pansies, and whether or not they should really be playing Blue Rose or whatnot. Suggesting they play something else entirely is pretty much the opposite of helpful.
Anyway, I'll expand on what I said earlier. Probably the best way to work with them is to get them to look at what their characters can do to solve these situations. Maybe let them re-work a few feats or powers. If that fails, changing up your monster selection or changing up their tactics might work. Stun, Petrify, and Dominate are the three big ones to avoid. Immobilize and Slow are mostly only a big deal for unprepared melee folks, and proper preparation is probably best. Then, after that, or maybe combined with that, I'd look to houserules like upping damage or something like I suggested earlier - allowing 1 save at the start of every turn.
Mid-level PCs have a lot of tools at their disposal to deal with this stuff. It's possible that, when making their characters, they passed those up in favor of sexier-looking options. I think it'd be very fair to let them look back at their powers and feats now that they know how much they hate being dazed.
-O
There's no wrong way to play D&D. I think it's fair to assume that Morrus isn't asking for an opinion on whether or not his players are a bunch of whiny pansies, and whether or not they should really be playing Blue Rose or whatnot. Suggesting they play something else entirely is pretty much the opposite of helpful.
Anyway, I'll expand on what I said earlier. Probably the best way to work with them is to get them to look at what their characters can do to solve these situations. Maybe let them re-work a few feats or powers. If that fails, changing up your monster selection or changing up their tactics might work. Stun, Petrify, and Dominate are the three big ones to avoid. Immobilize and Slow are mostly only a big deal for unprepared melee folks, and proper preparation is probably best. Then, after that, or maybe combined with that, I'd look to houserules like upping damage or something like I suggested earlier - allowing 1 save at the start of every turn.
Mid-level PCs have a lot of tools at their disposal to deal with this stuff. It's possible that, when making their characters, they passed those up in favor of sexier-looking options. I think it'd be very fair to let them look back at their powers and feats now that they know how much they hate being dazed.
-O
Barastrondo
First Post
One of my co-workers would argue, and I find it difficult to disagree, that when you miss a turn you aren't playing Monopoly anyway. You're watching everyone else play Monopoly until you're allowed to play again.
This is an even more valid complaint for RPGs because the longer it takes between turns, the more it becomes evident that you're not really getting to play. In a four-player Uno game, you miss a turn and you go from having to wait for three players to resolve their actions (which takes, what, five seconds a card?) to waiting for six. In a five-player + DM D&D game, you go from having to wait for four players and each of the DM's monsters to resolve their turns to waiting for eight players and (DM's monsters x2) to resolve their turns, and it's going to take considerably longer unless everything is just "I swing. (roll) I miss. I'm done."
Now, maybe it's an exciting fight. But you're still not playing. You're waiting and observing. And although that might be an enjoyable pastime for some players, I doubt it merits status as some form of sacred cow of the hobby. If the chance of non-participation were that important to roleplaying, there'd be more games out there with rules for making the GM "miss a turn" now and again so the spectator role could be passed around more liberally.
Mark
CreativeMountainGames.com
Many advances in the game have been predicated on what players find "unfun" so why should removing status effects be any difference from any other change. Just drop them. There should be an easier way to track hit point loss, too, like damage being streamlined to five point integrals and character sheets having simple check boxes. It would speed up combat both in regard to record keeping and the math(s) involved.
