When to use the "special" attacks?

[SheepLord]

For your first post, this was a very good question. All the ideas posted so far are good, I'll try to add some more.

-have some enemy casters use counter spell
-some rogues flanking them with sneak attack (ouch)
-fight a pack of tripping dire wolves...
-sunder their weapons into dust
-some weak invisible enemies, makes them wish for see invis
-keep the spell casters from memorizing (attack at night)
-give character levels to some NPCs or monsters (5th level goblin rogue is a good one to start with)
-summoned monsters to get the casters in back
-some attacks that can tumble past fighers to hit casters

You already realize that you need to use varied and developed tactics against them. This means that they may start to use them.

On the other hand, you can also try to write adventures that REQUIRE them to use some of these tactics. Like disarming a weapon they need to steal, but NOT kill the target. Or using subdual damage and grapple to capture people. Combat in dangerous areas has aready been mentioned (cliffs, bridges, trees, castle walls), but try some more types. Combat in a crowded city bazaar with innocents totally ing up the combat area is a favorite of mine. Forests with many trees for cover, fighting in a burning building (which should happen from lots of fire spells). And most of all, make sure they are having fun. If they are totally satisfied with the way they play, ok. If they start to enjoy actually learning more, yer doing your job even better.

Edit: sorry about the smily faces, I tried to use a four letter word that started with 'f'. You get the idea.

 

[EntropyDecay]

And most of all, make sure they are having fun. If they are totally satisfied with the way they play, ok. If they start to enjoy actually learning more, yer doing your job even better.

Hey, what about my satisfaction as a GM?

Part of my problem is that very often when they have to face opponents of appropriate CR for their level it happens that they surprise me with TPS [Total Player Stupidity].

Example from a recent session [Speaker in Dreams]:



Spoiler Alert!!!



They
- knew that there was a portal to the Nine Hells in the Temple of Pelor
- had already fought several devils and half-fiends in the streets so they knew of the fire resistance they possess.
- had seen the osyluth and knew it was in the temple along with several mysterious priests
- had befriended the paladin's apprentice Torea (?) [Paladin was dead as they had failed to rescue him from "Those who hear"]

What happenend then:
- they never asked Torea if she had knowledge of the special abilities of devils
- the spellcasters prepared their beloved flaming spheres because "they are the best spells we have"
- no buff spells were cast before they entered the temple [I guess they didn't see the fight coming ]
- first thing they saw was the osyluth who was standing in front of a large column of fire -> discussion starts among players if the devil would burn to death if they bullrush it into the portal of flames [the same portal that the devils had used to enter the world ]
- they survived the fight with some incredible luck...

End of Spoiler!!!


Sometimes I have that feeling that the first sentence in the PHBs of my group is:
"Welcome, you are about to enter a magical world full of dangers, traps, treasures, heroism and wonders... but please leave your brain out."

Anyway, I have some ideas now. Thanks again everybody.

Entropy
*who feels as if he has portrayed his group as a bunch of total morons and wants to say that this is not at least true. if they just would play more as team and start using battle tactics*

 

[Pielorinho]

Our group buffs constantly. I hear about groups that dont' buff, and I just don't understand. We actually keep a "buff list" that shows every PC and what their standard buffing spells are, so that we don't have to figure it out anew each day.

Definitely put them up against opponents who work well together. Maybe you could even make buffing spells a little more obvious (at least to someone with spellcraft): bull's strength makes pulsing veins appear along muscles where no veins appear naturally, someone with cat's grace gains slit pupils like a cat's, etc. When attacking an opponent protected by shield or mage armor or protection from alignment, they should feel their attacks bouncing away from an invisible force, or slipping to the side. Barkskinned opponents have cracked, tough skins.

Really play up these descriptions, and after describing each thing, allow folks with spellcraft to make a roll to identify the buff spell.

Put them in a fight in which they face two or three PCs of their level who use intelligent tactics like this. Maybe there's a rogue, a monk, and a sorcerer. The sorcerer buffs the rogue and monk out the butt. The monk and rogue tumble past the main guys to flank the wizard or the druid. The monk leads with a stunning blow against that PC; the rogue follows up with a sneak attack. The sorcerer hangs out in back readying actions to magic missile either spellcaster who manages to start casting a spell, forcing them to make concentration checks. The monk may decide to start with a tripping attack and use his improved trip feat to follow up with a stunning attack: tripping a mage is fairly easy, usually, and both the monk and the rogue will appreciate the +4 follow-up attack bonus.

Make these 3 NPCs level 7, and give them the following buffs:
Enlarge (for the +2 str bonus)
Protection from good (for the +2 deflection bonus)
Mage armor (on the monk and sorcerer -- this can be from a wand)
Cat's grace (assume that the frontline fighters have weapon finesse)
Haste (for the +4 AC bonus and extra partial action)
Endure elements: fire (assuming they know they're going against spellcasters -- fire is the most common source of spell damage; this can also be from a wand or a scroll)

So what we're looking at here are three PCs whose AC starts at 20 (+2 deflection, +4 mage armor, +4 haste) before dex (and wis for the monk) is calculated in. Both frontline fighters will probably have ACs in excess of 25 (+1 to +3 from cat's grace, and more from dex and wis). The sorcerer won't have lots of spells left, but that's okay: all she'll need is to cast magic missiles.

If the group looks threatened, they should use their haste actions to get out of dodge.

Hopefully, this group will impress on your PCs why they ought to use buff spells.

Daniel

 

[Happiest_Sadist]

Beat their ass down with a coordinated attack. What i recomend is throwing them up against the following group holding a dungeon room.
Fighter 4 x2 armed with guisarmes, combat reflexes, and the improved trip feat who trip anyone who comes through the door.
Fighter 4 x2 with longbows and weapon specialization who shoot any PC before they come though the door
Cleric 5-7 who buffs up the fighters especially with fire resistance, heals them, and uses incapacitating spells to the best advantage. Ex. When a fighter finally breaches the door, whacks them with a hold person, and then someone could coup de grace them. Spellcasters that begin using damage spells are hit with blindness.

Watch as they are slaughtered, then show them the people's stats and how they beat them.

Or you can do what my DM did and have one mission be defending a place for a certain amount of time. We ended up holed up in the basement of a shop, trying to hold off a crime lord who was searching the city for the slaves we had stolen untill we could get releif. Because our attackers came in waves, and were as good fighters as us by the end, we had to use good strategy to beat them. We also survived only because we split our resources to assure that noone escaped, as if anyone came back, we were in trouble.

 

[DanMcS]

What is your opinion of the different attack options? When do you use them? Are they worth using when you have only one attack per round? Are they only worth it when you start to higher your chances by taking feats?

I think they're fun, so I use them. I played a swashbuckling game one-shot at the Ohio game day, and won initiative versus the guy I was dueling, so the first thing I did was disarm him and kick his rapier into a nearby river channel. The fight was pretty much a foregone conclusion after that. Both of those characters were 8th levelish, but I don't think they had any enabling feats.

In our weekly d20 modern game, my character wandered into an ambush of werewolves, and was unarmed. Couldn't hurt them at all with a punch (stupid modern subdual rules), and they were trying to kidnap the NPC, so I was reduced to bull-rushing, tripping, and tumbling, trying to escape and get help, or at least get my gun from my car. It almost worked, too, and that character was only 3rd level, miserable BAB, no helpful feats.

Um, let's see, in our Mutants and Masterminds game, I couldn't seem to affect this villain, he was too hard to damage, so tripping him meant someone else could get prone attacks on him, that worked pretty well actually. He ran, so I used another special maneuver, a ram. In MnM, you can add half the distance you move to your damage if you're charging (it's a superhero game, that's what superheroes do). So I rammed him into the wall, full power attack too, and flattened him with one hit. Then I had to see if I knocked myself silly with the ram, and I did, but I was fine with that. It was swell.

In short, combat maneuvers are fun, flavorful, less fattening, and all around tasty.

 

[Steverooo]

Two suggestions

1) "Crawl Competition", where they can watch a lower-level team go through a pre-set obstacle course to achieve some goal (after they've already been through it). Best if they failed the test, or did very poorly! "Monsters" can all be illusions, as can traps, etc. Best team gets the job/reward.

2) Known lower-level team beats the snot out of them, takes all their goods, and leaves them tied somewhere in the woods. Passing Paladin frees them, but they will have to re-equip and go after the NPCs to get their stuff back... probably getting whomped, again. Then the GM can remind them that the NPCs are lower level than them, count up the XP, raise them a level, and sell the captured PCs into slavery...

 

[Ramien Meltides]

I have a few more suggestions for you, and I echo the earlier poster who said "Good question for your first post".

1. I think you should present your NPC team as lower-level (even if just one level lower) than your PC party. It would be best if you could think of a way to present this information to your players somehow (Bards sing of them beginning after the PC group, or a trusted NPC tells them they're not as experienced, etc.) This way, the effectiveness of buff spells, flanking, and general teamwork will have an even greater impact.

2. One of the earlier posters suggested having your PC sorcerer or cleric make spellcraft checks to ID the buff spells being used by your bad guy team. This is also a great idea. To make this lesson stick it's imperative that your players understand HOW the NPC team is so effective... they need to know the buff spells were cast.

3. I suggest that when you use one of the special maneuvers, such as disarm, bull rush, etc., you try to describe it in an especially exciting fashion. Sometimes combat isn't about who can do the most damage, it's about who looks the most impressive doing damage! Players are inherently attracted towards things that are "cool". If you make the nonstandard maneuvers something very "cool" they're more likely to go for it.

4. The opinions of NPCs can mean a lot to your players as well. If there are any powerful or well known spellcasters that are friendly to the PC's, perhaps they could drop by for a chat. "Only a fool of a wizard doesn't cast Endurance." they might explain over dinner (buff spells). "No rogue in his right mind would fight one-on-one without someone on the other side to distract him." (flanking)