TSR When TSR Passed On Tolkien

Benjamin Riggs recently revealed this tidbit of TSR history -- Lorraine Williams passing on the rights to Tolkien's works in 1992!

"So, in 1992, TSR almost acquired the rights to JRR Tolkien's work. John Rateliff was sent to London to negotiate the deal, missing Gen Con. (Apparently, no TSR employees were allowed to miss Gen Con, but he was for this...) He met Christopher Tolkien at the Harper-Collins offices, where he asked for the rights to make RPGs, merch, and new books set in Middle-Earth. Chris Tolkien said yes to the RPGs, and some merch, but no to the fiction line.

Back in Lake Geneva, Rateliff communicated this to TSR CEO Lorraine Williams. Rateliff said, "Her immortal words were, ‘Not worth our while.’”

She then passed on the whole deal."

Rateliff wrote the book The History of the Hobbit: The Hobbit / Mr. Baggins / Return to Bag-end.

Amazon.com: The History of the Hobbit: The Hobbit / Mr. Baggins / Return to Bag-end: 9780618964406: Rateliff, John D., Tolkien, J. R. R.: Books

Amazon.com: The History of the Hobbit: The Hobbit / Mr. Baggins / Return to Bag-end: 9780618964406: Rateliff, John D., Tolkien, J. R. R.: Books

www.amazon.com

 

[ccs]

I mean exactly what I said. Hardly anyone played it, especially compared to D&D.

You will of course be able to provide verifiable proof of this, right?

 

[Lord of Nessus]

I'm not sure I agree that passing on it was a sound financial decision, Zardnarr - Tolkien was pretty darn popular with RPG fans, to the point that Gygax put some Tolkien-inspired material into D&D (i.e. Halflings) that he didn't personally like but which he knew fans would want to play as/use. Sure, it might not have made massive amounts of money, but then again, did any of the campaign settings that were released in that time period rake in the bucks?

I also don't get how the "competing with yourself" comment. Couldn't/wouldn't TSR have just released the Tolkien/Middle Earth material as another campaign setting using the AD&D rules? (If you mean they would create a separate RPG with its own rules, then I agree that would be competing with AD&D - though TSR would get the money either way.)

In any case I guarantee you that if word had become public at the time of this decision, the fans would have considered it an insane move. But the past is the past, and there's a 5e compatible series of books for Middle Earth, so we did get it in the end. (P.S. Glad they didn't get the novel rights - those I am sure would have stunk.)

 

[Zardnaar]

I'm not sure I agree that passing on it was a sound financial decision, Zardnarr - Tolkien was pretty darn popular with RPG fans, to the point that Gygax put some Tolkien-inspired material into D&D (i.e. Halflings) that he didn't personally like but which he knew fans would want to play as/use. Sure, it might not have made massive amounts of money, but then again, did any of the campaign settings that were released in that time period rake in the bucks?

I also don't get how the "competing with yourself" comment. Couldn't/wouldn't TSR have just released the Tolkien/Middle Earth material as another campaign setting using the AD&D rules? (If you mean they would create a separate RPG with its own rules, then I agree that would be competing with AD&D - though TSR would get the money either way.)

In any case I guarantee you that if word had become public at the time of this decision, the fans would have considered it an insane move. But the past is the past, and there's a 5e compatible series of books for Middle Earth, so we did get it in the end. (P.S. Glad they didn't get the novel rights - those I am sure would have stunk.)

I think people over rate the appeal of Middle Earth as an RPG.

In 1992 who would be your target audience? People who like fantasy RPGs already have D&D for similar genres.

That leaves a theoretical amount of people out there who want to play an RPG set on Middle Earth.

Basically I don't think there is a significant market out there for MERP.

 

[Lord of Nessus]

I think people over rate the appeal of Middle Earth as an RPG.

In 1992 who would be your target audience? People who like fantasy RPGs already have D&D for similar genres.

That leaves a theoretical amount of people out there who want to play an RPG set on Middle Earth.

Basically I don't think there is a significant market out there for MERP.

Hey, maybe you're right. I admit that as a Tolkien fan, I am biased. Certainly I would have grabbed up a TSR boxed Middle Earth campaign setting (and supplements) in an instant, had they been released. Remember Middle Earth isn't just Halflings or Rangers; it's a whole world decidedly different from Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk. Some of those differences were problematic, such as there being only five Wizards in the entire world, and most enemies being kind of generic (i.e. orcs, wolves, spiders, and trolls) with only the occasional standout (i.e. the Ringwraiths). I can see the argument for "You don't need a campaign setting, just use Tolkien's maps and the appropriate monsters from the MM, and don't allow Wizard PCs." Still woulda bought that box...

 

[Parmandur]

And again, the RPG rights would be small potatoes next to writing novels set in Middle Earth. Cash Cow right there.

 

[darjr]

I would have bought everything. And I was mostly done with TSR at the time. 2nd edition ansk was strong with me.

 

[Sacrosanct]

You will of course be able to provide verifiable proof of this, right?

I wouldn't think I'd need to provide proof of something that was pretty obvious to any of us who played in the 80s/90s. But even if you discount the very credible reason someone else gave upthread, Arcane Magazine in 1996 did a pool of the top 50 RPGs up to that point, and it didn't even break the top 10.

11 - Middle Earth Roleplaying
10 - Cyberpunk
9 - Star Wars
8 - Shadowrun
7 - Paranoia
6 - Vampire: the Masquerade
5 - RuneQuest
4 - Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay
3 - Traveller
2 - AD&D
1 - TORG

Granted, that was by popularity, and not sales, and was in Britain (an American version would have D&D #1 by a mile).

Either way, I'm sure most everyone will agree that the people who regularly played MERP was just a fraction of those who played D&D.

Those of us who wanted to play in ME, we just did, using D&D rules. No need to any official supplements since it was already all there in the novels.

 

[darjr]

The John who TSR hired and sent wrote this!

Amazon.com: The History of the Hobbit: The Hobbit / Mr. Baggins / Return to Bag-end: 9780618964406: Rateliff, John D., Tolkien, J. R. R.: Books

Amazon.com: The History of the Hobbit: The Hobbit / Mr. Baggins / Return to Bag-end: 9780618964406: Rateliff, John D., Tolkien, J. R. R.: Books

www.amazon.com

 

[Azzy]

Just another collosal display of ineptitude from Williams.

 

[Zardnaar]

Just another collosal display of ineptitude from Williams.

Not really more production costs, probably not going to increase the RPG market.

There's been 2 or 3 ME RPGs since the movies. Where are they now? They're not taking the RPG world by storm.

Even if the got movie rights they probably wouldnt have had the resources to get something out the door.