TSR When TSR Passed On Tolkien

Benjamin Riggs recently revealed this tidbit of TSR history -- Lorraine Williams passing on the rights to Tolkien's works in 1992!

"So, in 1992, TSR almost acquired the rights to JRR Tolkien's work. John Rateliff was sent to London to negotiate the deal, missing Gen Con. (Apparently, no TSR employees were allowed to miss Gen Con, but he was for this...) He met Christopher Tolkien at the Harper-Collins offices, where he asked for the rights to make RPGs, merch, and new books set in Middle-Earth. Chris Tolkien said yes to the RPGs, and some merch, but no to the fiction line.

Back in Lake Geneva, Rateliff communicated this to TSR CEO Lorraine Williams. Rateliff said, "Her immortal words were, ‘Not worth our while.’”

She then passed on the whole deal."

Rateliff wrote the book The History of the Hobbit: The Hobbit / Mr. Baggins / Return to Bag-end.

Amazon.com: The History of the Hobbit: The Hobbit / Mr. Baggins / Return to Bag-end: 9780618964406: Rateliff, John D., Tolkien, J. R. R.: Books

Amazon.com: The History of the Hobbit: The Hobbit / Mr. Baggins / Return to Bag-end: 9780618964406: Rateliff, John D., Tolkien, J. R. R.: Books

www.amazon.com

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

Now I am thinking.... if Prime Video by Amazon produce that teleserie set in the second age of Middle-Earth, and it is a blockbuster... Hasbro could try an agreement for the toys.

* LotR is Enya singing chill-out music and D&D is Within Temptation, Nightwish or Sabaton singing epic metal.

* We don't need followers of the ring ir our D&D world, but sometimes I miss valar and maiar

* What if human from the Earth would be abducted by the dark powers from the demiplane of dread (Ravenloft) and their dark realms are "clones" of famous franchises? Maybe a fan of Lovecraft's myths would hate to live as in a Tolkien's book.

 

[The Hierophant]

I think people over rate the appeal of Middle Earth as an RPG.

In 1992 who would be your target audience? People who like fantasy RPGs already have D&D for similar genres.

That leaves a theoretical amount of people out there who want to play an RPG set on Middle Earth.

Basically I don't think there is a significant market out there for MERP.

MERP had over 100 sourcebooks/scenarios. It was printed in several countries, I myself started with the Games Workshop boxset, and multiple languages.

Of course it wasn’t as big as D&D but to suggest it didn’t have a significant market is plainly wrong.

 

[Zardnaar]

MERP had over 100 sourcebooks/scenarios. It was printed in several countries, I myself started with the Games Workshop boxset, and multiple languages.

Of course it wasn’t as big as D&D but to suggest it didn’t have a significant market is plainly wrong.

Lorraine said it wasn't worth their time, and then later in this thread some MERP sales figures came out.

Those figures are around half of a BECMI boxed set (released 1991) that wasn't the red box and in its lifetime it sold slightly more than 2Es first year sales. This was not peak D&D either. 3.0 on release sold in a month what MERP sold in its lifetime.

That gives you the idea of the scale involved.

When Lorraine said that it was also when D&D was on a downward slide. They already had 2 or 3 product lines all of which were selling more. If you've got a product that sells 30-40k a year and several other products that sell 10 times that amount what are you going to go with?

The OP states her words were "Not worth our while".

People seem to think MERP is worth millions and millions. Its not. Its worth something of course but Lorraines words make a bit more sense when you look at the scale of things circa 1992. Its a similar genre to what you already are making and what you're already making sells a lot more.

 

[Umbran]

* LotR is Enya singing chill-out music and D&D is Within Temptation, Nightwish or Sabaton singing epic metal.

Nothing involving Cheetos is "metal". Sorry.

 

[Lanefan]

LotR is Enya singing chill-out music and D&D is Within Temptation, Nightwish or Sabaton singing epic metal.

Complete side note here to mention this most bizarre concidence: this is the second time in as many weeks that completely out of the blue I've seen/heard Nightwish, Sabaton (who aren't exactly similar bands!), and D&D mentioned together.

The other time was in a pub in Seattle on Labour Day weekend - three guys were sitting next to us chatting, and within the 5 minutes before they left Nightwish, Sabaton and D&D all came up in their conversation.

Weird.

/side note

 

[Zardnaar]

Complete side note here to mention this most bizarre concidence: this is the second time in as many weeks that completely out of the blue I've seen/heard Nightwish, Sabaton (who aren't exactly similar bands!), and D&D mentioned together.

The other time was in a pub in Seattle on Labour Day weekend - three guys were sitting next to us chatting, and within the 5 minutes before they left Nightwish, Sabaton and D&D all came up in their conversation.

Weird.

/side note

I like Nightwish and Sabaton, Within Temptation not so much but I like the song they do as a duo with Nightwish's old singer.


Or Woodstock Poland. Big crowd.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Darksun could have probably stayed in print, but nothing new after 1994 in terms of lavish boxed sets.

No

Mystara
Planescape
Revised Darksun
Birthright

Al Qadim made more money apparently than Planescape.

Spelljammer was winding down and ended 93.

So to save TSR you would have to cancel most if not all the non FR settings. Ones that were cheap to produce might survive. And/or be redone in book form.

I guess we can think of those settings as TSR's "dying gifts"

With apologies to anyone who suffered personal setbacks from the collapse, from a standpoint of creative contribution I think it was well worth it.

 

[The Hierophant]

Lorraine said it wasn't worth their time, and then later in this thread some MERP sales figures came out.

Those figures are around half of a BECMI boxed set (released 1991) that wasn't the red box and in its lifetime it sold slightly more than 2Es first year sales. This was not peak D&D either. 3.0 on release sold in a month what MERP sold in its lifetime.

That gives you the idea of the scale involved.

When Lorraine said that it was also when D&D was on a downward slide. They already had 2 or 3 product lines all of which were selling more. If you've got a product that sells 30-40k a year and several other products that sell 10 times that amount what are you going to go with?

The OP states her words were "Not worth our while".

People seem to think MERP is worth millions and millions. Its not. Its worth something of course but Lorraines words make a bit more sense when you look at the scale of things circa 1992. Its a similar genre to what you already are making and what you're already making sells a lot more.

No, I’m taking issue with your statement that there was 'no significant market' for MERP. That’s obviously untrue given the amount of MERP books produced.

 

[Zardnaar]

No, I’m taking issue with your statement that there was 'no significant market' for MERP. That’s obviously untrue given the amount of MERP books produced.

That is fine but relative to D&D and the scale. D&D in the same time frame sold over a million units, hell if you cherry pick 83 to 91 its even higher.

MERP went under, so did 2E, both had lots of books.

I gave Lorraines exact quote in the OP, we know roughly how much 2E sold and when and we also know how many sets the black box sold. Both of them dwarf MERP using the knowledge Lorraine had in 1992.

Its a relative thing, MERP put up good numbers for a not D&D RPG but its not D&D scale.

IN 2E first year they sold around 270-280k copies thats almost the lifetime sales of MERP. That black box sold 500k and then ad a follow on box released 1992 IIRC.

If one product outsells the other by a factor of 10 roughly in a year what are you going to focus on?

Lorraines quote "its not worth our while". Context look at early 2E sales before it tanked, look at BECMI sales which had the Rules Cyclopedia and 2 boxed sets released around that time frame.

I never said MERP was worth nothing, its context. If you have 3 or 4 products all of which outsell MERP Lorraines quote makes perfect sense IMHO.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

MERP went under, so did 2E, both had lots of books.

MERP (Iron Crown Enterprises) did not go under. ICE got the license pulled because they started doing things with Middle-Earth that were outside the deal. ICE never folded, but was rather bought by another company in 2001, two years after the loss of the license.

And as others have said, at its most popular, MERP was the second best selling fantasy rpg, only behind D&D.