D&D General When Was it Decided Fighters Should Suck at Everything but Combat?

[Lanefan]

Yep. This is why there's really only four classes and the rest are versions of the others mixed together. But even one of those is a multiclass of an existing class and an unexpressed other class.

Fighter, Magic-User, and Thief are the pure classes. Cleric is really a mix of fighter (25%) and healer (75%).

Everything else is a jumble of those concepts. Paladin, 75% fighter and 25% healer. Ranger is a forest-based Thief.

Ranger should be a forest-based Fighter. Healing is the Cleric's niche, shared with Druid (who IMO are just specialist Clerics anyway). Divination is also really the Cleric's niche, though shared a bit with Bards and Wizards. Letting non-Clerics heal destroys their true niche.

All the magic classes are Magic-User themes, skins, and reskins. Monk is a Fighter Thief. Etc.

Monk is and always has been an odd duck. Bard could be its own version of an odd duck with its own niche (sonic effects and magic-through-sound; neither arcane nor divine) but the designers instead made it just another caster.

Until we can get back to the core four, we're going to have lots of classes stepping on each other's niche.

There's a difference between sharing a niche and intruding on a niche. Rangers, if-when done right, have the woods niche to themselves and share some of the Fighter's niche. Fighters share their basic hit-things niche with lots of classes but have true fighting mastery all to themselves. Thief's (Rogue's) niche is supposed to be scouting, sneaking, and so forth (shared a bit with Ranger but only outdoors) rather than combat but then they gave it combat too.

Yet another reason why the trinity of tank, DPS, and heals from video games just works so much better.

IMO it should be tank, scout, and heals: the tank (i.e. highest damage absorber) should also be the highest damage dealer.

 

[Scribe]

IMO it should be tank, scout, and heals: the tank (i.e. highest damage absorber) should also be the highest damage dealer.

...Unless we are dropping to 3 classes, and even then not really, that doesn't work.

 

[overgeeked]

Ranger should be a forest-based Fighter.

Sure. Or a Fighter-Thief with a penchant for shrubs.

Healing is the Cleric's niche, shared with Druid (who IMO are just specialist Clerics anyway). Divination is also really the Cleric's niche, though shared a bit with Bards and Wizards. Letting non-Clerics heal destroys their true niche.

Yeah. Druid is a Magic-User-Cleric with a penchant for shrubs.

Monk is and always has been an odd duck. Bard could be its own version of an odd duck with its own niche (sonic effects and magic-through-sound; neither arcane nor divine) but the designers instead made it just another caster.

There's a difference between sharing a niche and intruding on a niche. Rangers, if-when done right, have the woods niche to themselves and share some of the Fighter's niche. Fighters share their basic hit-things niche with lots of classes but have true fighting mastery all to themselves. Thief's (Rogue's) niche is supposed to be scouting, sneaking, and so forth (shared a bit with Ranger but only outdoors) rather than combat but then they gave it combat too.

I tend to think of the Thief as the skill monkey. But basically the same idea.

IMO it should be tank, scout, and heals: the tank (i.e. highest damage absorber) should also be the highest damage dealer.

Maybe. It’s crossing the streams though. Tank, DPS, and heals are combat roles. Scout is an exploration role. So, in a perfect world, you’d have trinities (or whatever a holy four-pack is…four-leafed clover?) for each of the pillars of play. Combat, exploration, social interaction, etc. So a Thief might be a DPS in combat and a scout in exploration. The end result being everyone always has something to do and contribute while not necessarily stealing another class’ thunder.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Healing is the Cleric's niche... Letting non-Clerics heal destroys their true niche.

So....every party needs a Cleric?

 

[Micah Sweet]

So....every party needs a Cleric?

No, you get by on potions, first aid, and being careful.

 

[Scribe]

So....every party needs a Cleric?

Healing being a niche for Cleric, just doesnt work unless there are literally just 3-4 classes.

 

[Lanefan]

So....every party needs a Cleric?

Every party is better with a Cleric, just like every party is also better with each of a Fighter and a Thief and a Mage type.

Maybe. It’s crossing the streams though. Tank, DPS, and heals are combat roles. Scout is an exploration role. So, in a perfect world, you’d have trinities (or whatever a holy four-pack is…four-leafed clover?) for each of the pillars of play. Combat, exploration, social interaction, etc. So a Thief might be a DPS in combat and a scout in exploration. The end result being everyone always has something to do and contribute while not necessarily stealing another class’ thunder.

Or maybe one class per pillar?

Fighter = combat, Thief = exploration, Caster = social and etc.

I'm not that worried about everyone having something to do in every situation. Sometimes it's your time to be the star, other times you're either in the background or are - for better or worse - making something for yourself to do.

And in combat everyone does have something to do, even the Thief; and if the end-result effectiveness is unequal (i.e. the Thief's contribution is less than that of the others), so what? The Thief's time to shine is outside of combat, where others are less effective.

 

[Lanefan]

Healing being a niche for Cleric, just doesnt work unless there are literally just 3-4 classes.

It works fine IMO in 1e or similar, where there's 12 or so classes, two of which - Cleric and Druid - can heal. I should note, though, that I very much see Druids as simply full-on deity-worshipping Clerics with a nature focus, different spell list, and some different mechanics and restrictions.

Assassin-Thief are another pairing that work well sharing a niche and yet each being their own thing; ditto Magic-User and Illusionist (though there's room for at least one more in there, my choice being Necromancer).

Fighter-Ranger-Paladin is a bit messier. Fighter-Ranger by itself is fine as a shared-niche pairing, but Paladin can't make up its mind whether it wants to be a Fighter or a Cleric or what.

Monks are their own thing and have their own niche and identity.

By-the-book Bards are a waste, though there's space for them as an oddball class starting from 1st level like everyone else. The trick, though, is to design them in such a way that they are unique and not be tempted to shoehorn them in with the other casters like recent-era WotC has done.

 

[Scribe]

It works fine IMO in 1e or similar, where there's 12 or so classes, two of which - Cleric and Druid - can heal. I should note, though, that I very much see Druids as simply full-on deity-worshipping Clerics with a nature focus, different spell list, and some different mechanics and restrictions.

Assassin-Thief are another pairing that work well sharing a niche and yet each being their own thing; ditto Magic-User and Illusionist (though there's room for at least one more in there, my choice being Necromancer).

Fighter-Ranger-Paladin is a bit messier. Fighter-Ranger by itself is fine as a shared-niche pairing, but Paladin can't make up its mind whether it wants to be a Fighter or a Cleric or what.

Monks are their own thing and have their own niche and identity.

By-the-book Bards are a waste, though there's space for them as an oddball class starting from 1st level like everyone else. The trick, though, is to design them in such a way that they are unique and not be tempted to shoehorn them in with the other casters like recent-era WotC has done.

Game design has moved on though, in a major way.

I mean list the actual niches, and then you can go through the 'pure class' 'hybrid class' and if niche protection even needs to be a thing.

Other games have (all imo) solved for this though.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Game design has moved on though, in a major way.

I mean list the actual niches, and then you can go through the 'pure class' 'hybrid class' and if niche protection even needs to be a thing.

Other games have (all imo) solved for this though.

I don't even understand why "niche protection" is a thing. Could somebody explain to me why it's desirable?