When Will and When Should WotC Release 4th Edition?

[Kae'Yoss]

I do expect more of 4e than just more errata and minor tweaks. But then again, I expect that there won't be a 4th edition for several years.

I think they should give 3(.5)e another 5 years. I think they should get some really good ideas for 4e. I think they should playtest it extensively. I think they should hunt down inconsistensies, copy&paste errors, typoes and the like in 4e (both from the current rules-set and in the new text).

 

[I'm A Banana]

Heck no!

As far as I know, 3e only has a few GLARING problems that would be worth a 4e to change, and most of those aren't any more (or much more) far-reaching than 3e to 3.5e.

1) Races and monsters should work the same. Already a GIANT step in this region with 3.5.

2) Mutliclass spellcasting not sucking while not being too powerful. There are several house rules to fix this, and the Mystic Theurge does what it can...

3) Classes need to be kept, though perhaps the idea that every class needs HD and BAB advancement at each level can be done away with (NPC's may just need one HD at every few levels, for instance)...Savage Species is a nice step in this direction.

4) Hit points need to be kept. It's very key to the 'heroic' feel of D&D

5) Magic MAY be slightly re-tooled, though it may be far too big of a sacred cow to banish. I could see the arcane/divine distinction blurring (as it already is with the likes of the bard), and perhaps switching to a point system, but they may just keep that for the 'optional magic' of psionics.

6) AC's may be slightly redone to have a bonus-by-level calculated in. That's the only change I think they would reallistically make for it.

Those six fairly minor (though basic) things are the glaring issues that I see, and two of them are on things that need to be kept.

Compare this to how big the change from 2e to 3e is....from NWP's to Skills, from THAC0 to BAB, from half a dozen saves to three, from kits to prestige classes, from restrictions to options...

I don't think 3e even NEEDS as big of an overhaul as 2e did. If 4e is to 3.5 what 3.5 was to 3e, I'll be happy (e.g.: they don't change major things, but alter a lot of basic mechanics to work better). Of course, making sure they ditch the whole 'Andy Collin's House Rules' feel of the new ruleset. But yeah, 3e doesn't NEED that big of an overhaul...

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Heck no!

As far as I know, 3e only has a few GLARING problems that would be worth a 4e to change, and most of those aren't any more (or much more) far-reaching than 3e to 3.5e.

I know. D&D doesn't have many problems that rally needed to be changed. Therefore I hope that 4e won't be out anytime soon. Cause when it's out, I expect some good changes that make the game even better (something that really justifies an all new edition). So I want them to think long and well about it and change the things that need to be changed and give us some nice ideas on top of that.

2) Mutliclass spellcasting not sucking while not being too powerful. There are several house rules to fix this, and the Mystic Theurge does what it can...

That's one of the few problems. IMO there should be a solution to the problem that doesn't involve PrC's. But the current rules are way better than the previous ones.

3) Classes need to be kept, though perhaps the idea that every class needs HD and BAB advancement at each level can be done away with (NPC's may just need one HD at every few levels, for instance)...Savage Species is a nice step in this direction.

I don't have a problem with that.

4) Hit points need to be kept. It's very key to the 'heroic' feel of D&D

Yea. And it's one of those things that make D&D what it is.

5) Magic MAY be slightly re-tooled, though it may be far too big of a sacred cow to banish. I could see the arcane/divine distinction blurring (as it already is with the likes of the bard), and perhaps switching to a point system, but they may just keep that for the 'optional magic' of psionics.

The magic system is IMO the single most important thing to D&D. It's something that defines D&D more than everything else. It's unique. And IMO it works well enough. No Mana like all the other games.

6) AC's may be slightly redone to have a bonus-by-level calculated in. That's the only change I think they would reallistically make for it.

Yes, that wouldn't be too bad.

 

[William Ronald]

I have noticed that several people have voted in the "Other" category. I would like to read some posts on what some of those who have voted in that category think will happen.

I think that multiclassing is an area that a new edition could improve. I know one person who was very UNHAPPY about how his 2nd edition character translated to 3.0.

What concepts from other D20 games might be good additions to a 4th edition?

Perhaps another area that 4.0 could address are the problems of bonuses. Bonuses of different types do stack, so anyone who really wants to have seven different +30 skill bonus items (see my thread Stacking Bonuses in 3.5 for a discussion of this topic.) I respect different playing styles, but I am not exactly comfortable with a +210 bonus to any skill.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I think that multiclassing is an area that a new edition could improve. I know one person who was very UNHAPPY about how his 2nd edition character translated to 3.0.

Well, in 3e multiclassed Spellcasters are on the weak side, while in 2e they were ridiculously overpowered (multiclassing in general was complete BS in AD&D). It's always that those who abuse such rules bark loudest when these rules are cut down to size.

Perhaps another area that 4.0 could address are the problems of bonuses. Bonuses of different types do stack, so anyone who really wants to have seven different +30 skill bonus items (see my thread Stacking Bonuses in 3.5 for a discussion of this topic.) I respect different playing styles, but I am not exactly comfortable with a +210 bonus to any skill.

Well this only works if the DM is stupid enough to allow it (he has the last word about magic items).

Also, this won't be cheap: An item that gives you a +30 competence bonus to a skill will cost you 90.000gp. Other bonuses will probably cost more, and an item that's on an unsuitable slot will cost half again as much.

Say we keep the cost the same for other types of bonuses and the item will be suited for two different item slots. That's 2 Items for 90.000 each and 5 for 135.000 each. That's 855.000 gold pieces. That's more than a 20th-level PC is supposed to have. And he wouldn't have any other magic or only very weak magic - no big weapon, no good armor, no great increase to his saves, no resistances. He would be a One-Trick-Pony, and this one trick won't be to good, either (for what will +210 in any skill be good for? What skill is so useful that you gain advantage on such a bonus?)

 

[Dakkareth]

"Magic starts working, and we finally KNOW how those spells ought to work."

Not until 2012

 

[navriin]

I think that a new edition will come out in three years. More than likely it will be called 4th Edition, because calling it 3.75 would be silly. The new edition will still be d20 and use the same general rules, but with different tweaks. As I imagine it:

BAB and saves will be set up as skills.

There will be less classes, but with specific trees to take contained within like the current ranger. For example you would play a fighter and select the 'rage' tree, the 'holy warrior tree', etc.

Class Defense bonus and armor as damage reduction. (I'm not a big fan of armor as damage reduction, but I see it coming-adamantium armor is 3.5's test of it).

Magic will stay essentially the same, but spontaneous casting will become the norm.

Focus will go more towards feat and skills as opposed to magic items. This swinging back of the pendelum is already making small steps in 3.5.

A toning down of all the new ability damage spells. Ability damage spells tend to be too powerful because attacking attributes ignores the whole level and hp concept.

Now do I think they should put out a new book in three years?

No.

I really think 3.5 could have just been a revised Monster Manual and a small expansion book that contained all the DMG and PH info, but obviously having three books instead of two is more profitable. In three years when they 'reprint' all the 3.0 stuff for 3.5 they are going to release a new edition to have an excuse to start the cycle again. I do not bregrudge the company for making money, but I think 3.5 started a cycle where the release dates of new editions will be closer and closer together. 3 years...2.5 years...2 years...(I doubt it will get closer than 2). While I did purchase and get a lot of use out of 3.5, I think myself and a lot of others will start to question buying products if another edition comes out so soon.

Preferably I think the should release 4th edition in five years. An ideal strategy to me would be to playtest 4th edition material by presenting it in Dragon magazine, and as time goes by have polls to see which changes are well recieved and which are bad. This would open up the game to a much larger playtest base, allow a lot of interesting ideas to be thrown out, and I bet it would bolster the magazine's sales as well. Heck, from a business viewpoint that is a good idea, I wonder why they don't use Dragon like that anymore instead of its current form, which is largely just as an advertising platform?

 

[William Ronald]

navriim,

I do like your suggestion for using Dragon to playtest elements of a 4th Edition. I like to think one of the strengths of 3rd Edition was the use of playtesters.

Kae Yoss, actually my friend wanted something slightly stronger than the 3.0 rules for a multiclass character. I think for him, it was not so much power, as flavor. (He could have gathered more magic items to help some of his character's thieving abilities. Sometimes I think 3.0 and 3.5 rely too much on magic items for the powers of characters.)

There are also ways to reduce the cost of many items, including having the character make the item. (This reduces the cost by half. Making an item with no space limitation doubles the cost.) Additionally, making an item class specific can cut costs. So, there are ways to cut costs.

As for why someone would want a huge bonus, see what you can do with high ranks of Spellcraft and Knowledge, Arcana or Knowledge, Religion in the Epic Level Handbook. I do agree that a DM needs to put his foot down on a few issues. Indeed, maybe some more advice for DMs is something that can be included in a 4th Edition game. (Or at least on the web enhancements.)

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Kae Yoss, actually my friend wanted something slightly stronger than the 3.0 rules for a multiclass character. I think for him, it was not so much power, as flavor.

If he wanted something stronger, he was in for the power, not for the flavor.

Sure, you can easily create a 2e thief that can rob anyone blind and sneak past whoever he wants, with a fixed 95% chance (or even 100% with the right items). But that was a big pile of garbage.

The 3e multiclassing rules are very good and the characters strong enough. The only problems are spellcasters, and that has been adressed with PrC's like the arcane trickster, eldritch knight and mystic theurge (they just need a little fine-tuning to fit the campaign)

(He could have gathered more magic items to help some of his character's thieving abilities. Sometimes I think 3.0 and 3.5 rely too much on magic items for the powers of characters.)

That's something many people say. I don't mind it, but it would indeed be good to have an alternative in the core rules.

There are also ways to reduce the cost of many items, including having the character make the item. (This reduces the cost by half. Making an item with no space limitation doubles the cost.) Additionally, making an item class specific can cut costs. So, there are ways to cut costs.

He will still pay quite a lot for that stuff (and now we're talking about paying XP, too).

Don't forget that my prices weren't the accurate final price, for other bonuses than competence should cost more.

And he needed 30 ranks in the skill to create a +30 item for that skill, so he won't do that anytime soon.

As for why someone would want a huge bonus, see what you can do with high ranks of Spellcraft and Knowledge, Arcana or Knowledge, Religion in the Epic Level Handbook.

For all these skills but Spellcraft, only the ranks are important. No magic item can help you here. And these epic spells you can cast with a high spellcraft mod need to be developed, too (which costs more gold and, most importantly, XP. Much XP. So your high rank won't help you unless you have enough XP to spend to create these Epic Spells in the first place.

I do agree that a DM needs to put his foot down on a few issues. Indeed, maybe some more advice for DMs is something that can be included in a 4th Edition game. (Or at least on the web enhancements.)

Well, the DMG is brimming with DM advice, including the fact that "the DM is has the last word. Period."

 

[jgrabowski]

4th Edition

I personally see 4th edition as coming out in 4-5 years. I think it will be more of a refinement and unification of the D20 system than a complete and utter overhaul.

What I'd like to see included would be the Reputation and Class defense bonus from D20 Modern, the addition of the Incantations from Urban Arcana and perhaps the point based system from GoO's BESM D20, which now has it's own SRD.

I'd also like to see several rules as "optional modules" ala D20 Future - D20 Modern's Wealth system, weapons as skills ala Anime D20 (GoO's SRD), fluctuating AC/Defense (optional rule in DMG), Ablative Armor (armor as DR), etc.

As for the Core "Sacred Cows", I'd like to see them keep HP, (but perhaps change it to the Vitality/Wound system in Star Wars D20), scaling saving throws and six stats.

Just my 2 copper!
Joe