When your game starts turning into Velveeta

[Eye Tyrant]

In the game I run we use the term "cheese" a lot.

Example of Cheese:

When one player, commonly referred to as the "Cheese Master" or "Cheese Wiz", discovered the the Delicate Disk spell from the Lost Empires book and then decided to conjure up about 15 of these plates that hold up to a 5th level spell, and then used a Limited Wish to have each set of 5 plates activated by a single word (as opposed to breaking them) I cried out "This is too much cheese!". I have to combat this kinda of stuf CONSTANTLY (see my thread in the Rules section about force effects). In this instance the PCs with the plates get instantly boosted with a ton of spells. And yes, I realize the spell is "ancient" and should not be easily accessible, but too late for that.

So here's the question, I'm I just being a poor sport, or do I have a legit reason to be irritated? I have a group of Power Gamers that will shortly reach Epic levels, it is becoming increasingly difficult for me to challenge them without customizing monsters to specifically target certain PCs. Of course when I do that my players all cry foul!

Am I just getting burnt? I dont have the time to pour through the books every night trying to think up new ways to challenge my players, but they all have tons of time to cheese-out their tactics etc. Changing DMs isn't really an option, as none of them own all the core books, and I dont plan to loan out my library....


Help?

 

[GlassJaw]

none of them own all the core books, and I dont plan to loan out my library

They don't own the core books yet they have time to go through the splat books and find all the broken stuff?

I have a group of Power Gamers that will shortly reach Epic levels

Going into Epic certainly won't help the problem. If anything, it will only get worse. MUCH worse.

My advice? Start everyone over at 1st. LIMIT the books they are allowed to use for character creation. Stick to the core and complete books only. That way you only have a few books to deal with. Use point-buy for stat gen.

Also, sticking to the core and complete books limits the races they can choose. As soon as you allow every race under the sun in your game, things start becoming a mess.

 

[WayneLigon]

I don't understand, I guess. It sound like one of your players found a spell in some third-party book or supplement and for some reason decided that that meant he could automatically know and use it? And then he decided that Limited Wish worked in such a way as to allow him to do this thing that you describe?

There's no need to 'combat' such thing; just tell them what sources are acceptable sources for spells.

IMO there is no such thing as 'too late'. You simply say 'I'm sorry, but I didn't realize the consequences of this poorly-written and overpowered spell when I let you use it' (I'm assuming here that you were the one that actually let him use it). 'I've thought it over and it just doesn't fit with the kind of campaign I want to run'. Now, that sounds like it's nice and reasonable but you also have to be prepared to say 'There's the door' if he says 'Well, I'm using it anyway'.

They don't need the core books; the SRD is on the net, so they all have access to it (I assume, again). Let one of them run for a time. Sounds like you need a break.

 

[Taloras]

Remember, Limited Wish and Wish cant do everything....if you dont think that the Limited Wish should be able to do that, the spell fails. And as they said, DONT allow the players to just take whatever they want out of any book out there. In any game I run, players are allowed to take things out of the core books, the complete books(with a few exceptions), anything else is on a dm discretion basis. If I dont like it, NO.

 

[William Ronald]

It would seem that the limited wish might not be sufficient to make five independent magic items to work together as a single item. This seems to be an attempt to effectively create the equivalent of an epic level spell effect. (Five 5th level spell effects at the same time is a bit much.) So rule that it fails. A simple rule is that if a limited with or wish is cast to try to achieve something that is equivalent to an epic level effect, then the spell fails. (In a group I left, people tied multiple bonus types in D&D 3.0 to gain insane bonuses for certain skills. We had definitely gone past the cheddar curtain in that one .... and I don't mean crossing the Illinois-Wisconsin border. )

 

[ARandomGod]

Going into Epic certainly won't help the problem. If anything, it will only get worse. MUCH worse.

My advice? Start everyone over at 1st. LIMIT the books they are allowed to use for character creation. Stick to the core and complete books only. That way you only have a few books to deal with. Use point-buy for stat gen.

Also, sticking to the core and complete books limits the races they can choose. As soon as you allow every race under the sun in your game, things start becoming a mess.

I agree, you should avoid Epic at all costs. Essentially once they hit level 20 the game is over, you can have a last campaign or two, but not let them get any higher level... and you have to end that soon.

Start over, level one... base rules/characters. I don't approve of the typical point buy (I prefer one where stat points and point buy points are exchanged one for one), but I do think that a point buy in general is the way to go.

As to the effect. I agree, limited wish shouldn't be able to do that. The way I would have handled it would have been to pause... look over the situation, think about what the effect would be if it worked... then ask them if they're really, really sure they want to make that wish, and then have it backfire in some way. The spell trying to do more than it's power is capable of deserves some horrific backfire. Plus it will go a long way towards helping to balance the campaign for that day! You'll have used up a lot of their resources in not only removing all those plates, but you'll have CERTAINLY had the spell that allowed the plates to exist be destroyed (irretreavably, sadly), and hurt each PC a good amount so that they have to spend additional resources recovering from that drastic move.

Then next time you ask someone if they really, really want to do that.. they'll probably reconsider.

 

[gizmo33]

It was true in the earlier editions and it seems to have remained true: you shouldn't be DMing near epic level games until you have some experience with the game system. It takes time to get to know your campaign and how to run adventures within it. It seems like you're throwing spells, powers, levels, magic items, etc. at the players and just expecting to keep up with it all.

My advice:
1. start over at 1st level
2. give out 1/2 the listed XP awards
3. use only the core rules unless you have had sufficient time to evaluate additions
4. work on your adventures to make them interesting - find ways to entertain the players other than throwing gobs of goodies at them

Of course a more restrained campaign in terms of power might not sit well with some of the players. I guess you need to decide what kind of game you want to run and take that vision seriously.

 

[Eye Tyrant]

I agree, you should avoid Epic at all costs. Essentially once they hit level 20 the game is over, you can have a last campaign or two, but not let them get any higher level... and you have to end that soon.

Start over, level one... base rules/characters. I don't approve of the typical point buy (I prefer one where stat points and point buy points are exchanged one for one), but I do think that a point buy in general is the way to go.

As to the effect. I agree, limited wish shouldn't be able to do that. The way I would have handled it would have been to pause... look over the situation, think about what the effect would be if it worked... then ask them if they're really, really sure they want to make that wish, and then have it backfire in some way. The spell trying to do more than it's power is capable of deserves some horrific backfire. Plus it will go a long way towards helping to balance the campaign for that day! You'll have used up a lot of their resources in not only removing all those plates, but you'll have CERTAINLY had the spell that allowed the plates to exist be destroyed (irretreavably, sadly), and hurt each PC a good amount so that they have to spend additional resources recovering from that drastic move.

Then next time you ask someone if they really, really want to do that.. they'll probably reconsider.

I have already decided that this will be it for this campaign... And do plan to start over at 1st Level.

The Limited Wish effect is certainly easy to get rid of, and I can follow that with a "poor DM judgement" clause. I dont know about (but would certainly LOVE ) having the failed spell cause some sort of retributive blast with an area of effect that covers the party...

Seems I have allowed the cheese to get stacked too high, now lets see if I cant nuke it.

 

[Rackhir]

I have already decided that this will be it for this campaign... And do plan to start over at 1st Level.

The Limited Wish effect is certainly easy to get rid of, and I can follow that with a "poor DM judgement" clause. I dont know about (but would certainly LOVE ) having the failed spell cause some sort of retributive blast with an area of effect that covers the party...

Seems I have allowed the cheese to get stacked too high, now lets see if I cant nuke it.

There's always Mord's Disjunction. Great for terminating magic items. Of if they are fragile, aren't there sonic spell of one sort or another that will shatter item?

 

[Eye Tyrant]

There's always Mord's Disjunction. Great for terminating magic items. Of if they are fragile, aren't there sonic spell of one sort or another that will shatter item?

Thought of that too... Will likely use Mord's Disjunction very soon to eliminate a cube of force.

Only problem with sonic is that the PCs put their plates in a Heward's Handy Haversack and a Bag of Holding, these being extra-dimensional items, I ruled that the plates are relatively free from danger until the sack or bag fails a save. So, looks like Mordenkainen will be taking on a few of my problems...