Where are all of the templates?

[-Avalon-]

Nothing special, is not a matter of special generation rules... is a matter of how analytical and tactical my players are...

When they built their characters, they literally went through the skill list and said, "Ok, who is covering ... ?" on each one, to make sure all were covered, then planned out having certain odd stats so that at 4 they would get the +1 to 2 stats and gain points to be used elsewhere on their characters, and all sorts of stuff...

The swordmage took human to get the most ac from picking feat: Hide armor, etc etc... These guys literally do strategy and tactics down to the tiniest detail, and the ONLY problem they are having is with traps...

Traps have DC's set so high up that rogues really cannot do them right...

pendulum scythes: DC 27 to see the CP, DC 22 to disarm. And at 4th level the best perception is around 12 or 13, thievery is around 15 or so because of all sorts of things though... so the ELF and only the elf, must see the CP first with a roll of 15, then the rogue can roll his 7 to disarm... lol

and the rest are like that also... this group has figured out the exact percentage chance to find and disable the traps, and have decided they will always take the first pop froma a trap, then they will just destroy it... lol... All characters can participate and it has lesser DCs involved (avg ac on traps is around 14 or 15 at this level).

 

[ricardo440]

I also have to say that doesn't seem right.

Though I don't rate minions (they are certainly of less value than 1/4 a real monster) I've got to say dropping 2 normal creatures a round is a very high damage rate.

 

[ValhallaGH]

To have the skill bonuses you're talking about, they all have to have either an 18+ in their skill stats (+11 - 5 [trained] - 2 [level] = +4 from ability, feats and race), or have only chosen skills that they get racial bonuses to. I'm sure they had both on several occaisions. This means you're using something other than the standard array. What are you using?

Average AC 22 = 10 + 2 (level) + 2 (enchant - slightly high but not bad) + 8 (armor / ability combination). So, the guy(s) in Hide armor (+3) has a 20+ Dex / Int. The Fighter must be in Plate or using a shield (or both). The Cleric is really confusing with Chainmail (+5, heavy) since he can't top a 19 at this level without having a wastefully high Dex / Int and being in light armor, or spending a feat for better armor. The Warlord can at least use a shield.

As you've described them, your players are munchkins who've mastered the rules and squeezed every bit of mechanical advantage out of them that they can. That's a pretty big advantage from their side in any combat.
So, use fewer combat encounters. Focus on RP encounters, skill encounters, traps, puzzles, and areas where everyone, not just one character with a good skill bonus, has to participate. Emphasize the RP in RP encounters, only using die rolls when you need to know how well a particular statement was made.

And don't be affraid to split these guys up in a fight. Use terrain that separates and issolates. As a team, 4E PCs are a juggernaut. Individually, they're merely okay.
Don't be affraid to use custom built foes. The monster creation rules are fast, simple, and open to whatever craziness you want to do. Best of all, your players will probably have no idea what combinations of abilities you've put onto your custom beasties for at least two encounters.
And feel free to demand copies of their sheets. You need to know what they can do to keep the game fun and interesting for everyone.

Final advice: Ask your players for feedback about the game. You might be surprised how things look from their side of the screen.

 

[Radiating Gnome]

That does seem like a very, very high rate of attack.

If you're having a problem with your normals being able to hit the ACs of your players, I still think you're better off using normals -- just higher level normals -- rather that elites. Hell, throw a cyclops at them for fun.

I hate to point out to you that the example traps in the DMG are an uncorrected throwback to the old skill check DCs that have been errated. If you check out some of the newer stuff on traps -- Mearls has an article that came out in the past couple of months, for example -- most of the newer trap and hazard DCs are much lower than the ones in the DMG. If I were you, and that's the one way you're making your player sweat, I'd leave it that way.

But . . . if the biggest problem is that your normals are having a hard time hitting your PCs . . . why not give them a +5 bonus to all to hit rolls across the board. Just make it DM fiat. Maybe +5 is too high. Maybe +2. I mean . . . don't be shackled by a belief that you need to challenge them "by the book", stick to some concrete formulas or only use sanctioned print stock to fight them with. If you need your monsters to have a better chance to hit, give it to them.

Just keep your eye on the ball -- the goal is for the players to have fun.

-j

 

[Radiating Gnome]

Elites usually get 1.5 attacks per round, or 3 per 2... reason is, most elites have a way of retaliating for different actions.....

Yeah, that's true, but any party worth it's salt isn't spreading it's attacks around the board. If there are three elites, and the Elites have a counterattack power, the players are probably only going to be exposed to one of those counterattacks, not three.

If you accept a +1 attack per round for the sake of argument, that's 12(base)+3(action points) +6(counterattacks) = 21.

Damn those math nerds the wotc guys have locked up in the basement are good.

Still . . . . and now I'm venturing away from what I can "prove" with numbers but what "seems true" in all it's truthiness . . . I still think that there are factors that mitigate the threat of elites vs normals. For one thing, the PCs are only exposed to those counterattacks on their terms -- after the first one they're going to know what's coming and only expose themselves to that attack if they are prepared to take that damage. If they're on the ropes, they avoid those attacks. And those attacks are focused on the Melee types, probably the defenders, rather than being a threat to a wider variety of party members.

But . . . it doesn't sound like the OP's problem is Elites after all -- he's using some, but it also sounds like he's playing with a group of tough min-maxers.

 

[-Avalon-]

Yes, min-maxers to the core, and extreme... And yes, I realize that the Swordmage took a 20 in his main stat, this was to offset the fact that the fighter had an extra +1 over him, and also gave him a 21 AC to start the game...

Since everything we are doing is by the book... how do I challenge them, by the book?

I realize most players have more well balanced characters, but these guys build their characters with weaknesses they know are covered by other players' strengths, as a true team should be, and know tactics well enough that I never get to capitalize on a weakness...

That coupled with the new treasure parcel mechanic, gives the players exactly what items they want within a given reasonable amount of time, so they have characters built exactly how they want them...

 

[fba827]

You could also try creating your own monsters (or take exsiting monsters and alter them to your own creation, even without a template).

 

[ValhallaGH]

Since everything we are doing is by the book... how do I challenge them, by the book?

Because you seem to have overlooked it before, I will repeat myself, only larger.
Split. Them. Up. Walls, clouds, mobile terrain, deadfalls, and any other trap, trick, or device that you can put into an encounter.

Make Everyone Participate. Even the guys that have a weakness in the skill. Especially the guys that are weak in the skill.

 

[fba827]

Yeah , to continue on what the above poster said, maybe make the challenge more based on envirornment and terrain rather than by monsters.

I don't know what type of layout you have for your combat, but, for instance don't have open field combats; there should be pits and narrow coridors to make bottle necks, ledges from which snipers can snipe, maybe obstacles (pits, bridges) or traps (fire jets or teleportation triggers) in the same room -- stuff that diverts attention from the monster tactics that the group already knows and makes the danger the fact that the environment isn't as stable as they assume.

Of course, you may well already be doing this (and I admit I did not fully read all of your posts).

 

[avin]

Dude, I'd hate to DM to your players... as you describe it seems a mind numbing dice rolling...