Where are all of the templates?

[-Avalon-]

not really all that bad...

Sword Mage is very story intensive, loves to LARP even... played ranger/rogue in 3.x games

Fighter is somewhat story intensive, but great tactician... played Warblade in 3.x games

Rogue is not tactical, but very lively and likes to do fancy actions... DMed the last game (3.x)

Warlord is VERY tactical, often role-playing while playing different strategy games with the rogue on the side, somewhat interested in story, but likes to make his own story lol, played bard in 3.x

Ranger only cares about story if he gets dragged into it, otherwise is all about combat, played cleric in the 3.x games

Cleric is someone who thinks way too much, and mainly does stuff just to see what happens and how it reacts with other stuff... he played the wizard in our 3.x games

If that gives any insights to the group I am referring to...

 

[James McMurray]

If they're highly min-maxed, and you cannot capitalize on their mins, you will never challenge them. That's all there is to it. You have to set up situations that make them act in areas where they're weak. A few ideas (some duplicated from above):

1) Split them up in fights, or even out of fights.

2) Use monsters that are resistant by their favorite attacks. For instance, if the cleric is radiance based, use angels and eladrin, with 0 undead.

3) Use skill challenges everyone has to participate in. It doesn't matter much that one guy has maxed athletics if everyone has to climb a mountain. Likewise make everyone explain to the judge why their unknowing defilement of the local holy ground shouldn't result in imprisonment.

4) Throw a situation at them once. Throw it at them again. See how they react both times, then throw a similar situation that has disastrous consequences if they keep to their standard tactic.

5) No rest. Keep sending things at them without giving them the 5 minutes needed to rest. Tactical choices dwindle rapidly when all you've got are at-wills.

6) Step outside the rules. The GM is given the right to change rules as needed. This is in the rules, so doing so is "by the book."

7) find out if they feel challenged. If they don't, ask them what you can do.

8) Make an encounter out in the open against a huge number of artillery who are far away, mobile, and have enough range to target a single PC every round.

9) Use NPCs more. Their tactical options are better than most monsters, and their capabilities are harder to judge. If you base them off of standard race templates from the appendix they don't even count as elites.

10) Explain to them that the level of min-maxing going on is not fun for you, and ask them to remake their characters. This is a last ditch thing, but if you really can't challenge them, and that's a major part of your fun when you GM, it's all you can do unless you resign yourself to not enjoying the game as much as you could.

 

[James McMurray]

Forgot one:

11) Design encounters with monsters that will be fun for you to play, and expect to lose. that's what I do most of the time in our epic campaign, because challenging my group sounds almost as hard as challenging yours. If cool synergies and situations are fun for you, it won't matter much that the party is walking all over everything.

 

[balard]

Try using many monsters. If you think minions are too easy, try many low level monster. Make then artillery and skirmishers. Many with at least an encounter area attack. And drop 1-2 brutes/soldiers with high AC, and many HP, of a higher level. Make it so he has an marking or immobilizing attack.

I saw a encounter very cool. Here or at wizards. It was the party at a small boat in a underground river. When they are near the end of the river trip, they have to face 2 corruption corpses attacking from the margin, 4 ice zombie(forgot the name) submerged(the aura damaging then and making the water kind frosty) and a winged zombie swooping from the ceiling. Very horror movie.

 

[ricardo440]

Yes, min-maxers to the core, and extreme... And yes, I realize that the Swordmage took a 20 in his main stat, this was to offset the fact that the fighter had an extra +1 over him, and also gave him a 21 AC to start the game...

Since everything we are doing is by the book... how do I challenge them, by the book?

I realize most players have more well balanced characters, but these guys build their characters with weaknesses they know are covered by other players' strengths, as a true team should be, and know tactics well enough that I never get to capitalize on a weakness...

I found the hardest fights are ones against mostly SOLDIERs and ARTILLERY of levels higher than the party.

Artillery can do lots of damage from my experience, and Soldiers are jsut hard to hit, especially when they have a rank up ability that gives them even more AC.

xp for xp they are the hardest fight. But you need to make sure they don't uotnumber the enemy. And give the enemy some terrain advantages. Give the baddies a magic circle of +2 AC and +1 to hit that can be dissabled with a skill challenge.

Combine Skill threats and monsters.

And run two encounters one into another so they don't have 5 minutes to rest.

 

[ricardo440]

Oh and the easiest way of laying down the beats!

AURAs

Free damage for every monster. Chillborne zombies. The fighter will be crying like a girl after he tries to get 4 of those to stick to him.

 

[Rechan]

Some general thoughts:

1) DO NOT forget using terrain features. Difficult terrain (especially with monsters that ignore the environment's difficult terrain, such as anything spider related and webs) are VERY USEFUL. They stop movement, or can cause OAs. Hindering or Hazardous terrain causes damage. Obscuring terrain allows monsters with Combat Advantage to hide and sneak attack. And artillery/controller monsters standing behind a low wall, protected by a 10' wide trench, will really put the hurt on your PCs that have no ranged capacity.

2) Look for monster ability synergies. What do I mean? The Chillborn zombie does extra damage to a foe who is immobilized, and Ghouls do extra damage to targets who are immobilized, stunned or unconscious. So, paring the ghoul or chillborn up with any monster that can immobilize PCs on a hit (Harpy's song, Deathlock Wight's grave bolt, gelatinous cube's touch, Magma Claw's spew lava, etc).

Another source of synergy: A monster with combat advantage + a monster that induces status effects which grant combat advantage. The following status effects grant combat advantage:

Knocked Prone
Dazed
Stunned
Blinded
Restrained

You could have a monster that induces the above status effect, and several lurkers/skirmishers waiting (especially hidden with stealth) to attack the status-effected target.

3) Monster Resistance Synergy. For instance, undead are immune to poison, and have decent necrotic resistance. So hazardous terrain that do poison or necrotic damage, or enemies/traps that throw around poison or necrotic area effects are not going to harm undead, but will harm the enemies. Fire-based monsters inside a burning building have little to worry about. Fighting on a half-frozen lake sounds like cake for ice monsters, who won't take damage if they fall in the water.

4) Monsters that shut down/limit PCs. These are few and far between, but they exist. For instance, the Shadar-Kai witch's Beshadowing Mist reduces the target's Line of Sight to 2 squares. This forces a bow ranger or Warlock to move well into dangerous territory if they want to use their powers. Other monsters will create areas that limit line of sight (Drow, Black Dragons) and other effects.

5) One-use terrain abilities. Imagine the bad guys standing up at the top of some narrow stairs, and they shove a barrel full of something heavy down the stairs. That's a one shot power, that hinges on something being in the area. Same with collapsing a balcony on those beneath it (or on it), knocking a columb down, setting the floor on fire, etc. These are situational circumstances that allow a little more variance.

 

[Rechan]

I personally like templates, simply because they are an easy way to say "Here's 2-3 thematically appropriate powers that can really change the flavor." I once made a shadow-stealing monster of legend that the Pcs were hunting by taking an Ettercap Fang Guard + Shadowborn Stalker.

Oh and the easiest way of laying down the beats!

AURAs

Free damage for every monster. Chillborne zombies. The fighter will be crying like a girl after he tries to get 4 of those to stick to him.

1) Chillborn zombies have resistance cold 10. So if there's more than 2 zombies in proximity to one another, they're going to take damage from their fellows' auras. The aura states (any creature).

2) Auras are really annoying to remember to take into account at the start of everyone's turn.

 

[James McMurray]

One way to really challenge min-maxed characters is domination. Turn those finely tuned numbers against their friends and take a heavy hitter out of the fight at the same time.

 

[Caliban]

I personally like templates, simply because they are an easy way to say "Here's 2-3 thematically appropriate powers that can really change the flavor." I once made a shadow-stealing monster of legend that the Pcs were hunting by taking an Ettercap Fang Guard + Shadowborn Stalker.



1) Chillborn zombies have resistance cold 10. So if there's more than 2 zombies in proximity to one another, they're going to take damage from their fellows' auras. The aura states (any creature).

2) Auras are really annoying to remember to take into account at the start of everyone's turn.

Also: Aura's of similar types don't stack. Doesn't matter how many chillborn zombies are near the fighter, he only takes cold damage once. (Monster Manual, page 280, Aura)