Where did -10 come from?

[JoeGKushner]

I'm guessing that Joe, like me, has experienced the phenomenon at higher levels where damage totals are so high that nobody is ever at any number of hit points between 0 and -9. When you are tossing around hundreds of damage per character, the 10 hit point buffer becomes insignificant unless you are very lucky.

Bingo.

-10 at low levels is like a huge buffer. Taking that idea of a buffer, one sees that it's practically nothing at higher levels because the damage is so high.

100 hit point guy gets hit for 30, 50, and 60. Even thought he's got 20 hit points when that last good blow strikes him, he's turned into fine paste.

10 hit point guy gets hit for 3, 5 and 6, and he's at -4. Good deal!

It's one of the reasons why I've been playing around with the Fort save variant in Unearthed Arcana. No negatives. You get hit below your hit points, you make a Fortitutde save, dc 10 +2 for every 10 points over 0 you were hit for. You make it, you're disabled, miss it, you're dying, miss it by 10 or more, you're dead.

In week four of using that in my Shackled City game. Which is also using Reserve Hit points but that's because no one's playing a cleric.

 

[fba827]

One parrallel to draw before my response... when I'm reading this I'm suddenly thinking of how car's have reserve tanks. When you get to E you aren't empty, you still have 1 or 2 gallons past E.... so you still have a 10 hp reserve past 0

As for my own thoughts - I never liked the -10. I think death at 0 makes more sense to me. But havin said that, in practice, players that I've gamed with seem to enjoy the extra buffer so I can live with it if I just change my perspetive from HP = life to HP = conciousness (sort of). And then instead of -10 i'd be inclined to use the varient (don't recall which book i saw it in) that gives different 'death' numbers based on size and constitution i think.

 

[diaglo]

i do think their is a distinction in the way it originally appeared and how it works now that people need to compensate for or think about...


in 1edADnD. 1 round = 1 minute. damage was done over a 1 minute combat round. the attacks represented the best attack for that 1 minute. it didn't mean you just stood still the whole minute. it meant you were moving in your 10 foot or 10 yard area and posturing and then taking your best attack. maybe even exchanging feints. it also meant if you succumbed to the damage (went negative) you bled out much more slowly.

the 6 second round makes for a quick death.

 

[CarlZog]

I don't know if this is why the -10 rule was implemented, but it always seemed to me to be a rules patch to create some distinction between being incapacitated and dead.

As for its value, I prefer any one of the numerous "wound/vitality"-type systems, which reflect the cumulative effects of damage on performance.

Carl

 

[Rystil Arden]

Bingo.

-10 at low levels is like a huge buffer. Taking that idea of a buffer, one sees that it's practically nothing at higher levels because the damage is so high.

100 hit point guy gets hit for 30, 50, and 60. Even thought he's got 20 hit points when that last good blow strikes him, he's turned into fine paste.

10 hit point guy gets hit for 3, 5 and 6, and he's at -4. Good deal!

It's one of the reasons why I've been playing around with the Fort save variant in Unearthed Arcana. No negatives. You get hit below your hit points, you make a Fortitutde save, dc 10 +2 for every 10 points over 0 you were hit for. You make it, you're disabled, miss it, you're dying, miss it by 10 or more, you're dead.

In week four of using that in my Shackled City game. Which is also using Reserve Hit points but that's because no one's playing a cleric.

Exactly. I also use the AU variant with the Con score, which helps a lot.

I honestly can't believe so many people like to see the characters die at 0. In my games, characters go below zero all the time--In my play-by-posts on Living ENWorld where I'm not allowed to change from the RAW, we just had 5/6 party members in negatives this fight and I think 6/8 were in negatives last fight, and they nearly had a few die after the battle because there weren't enough actions to get to all of them with healing potions in time--and this is at low levels.

Frankly, even with the AU variant, at high levels, there is plenty of death--perhaps that Fort save variant from UA would help. A typical fight in my level 19 home game involves the Wizard dealing devastation on the first round or so and then immediately dying, while the cleric finishes off anything left alive that has a Disintegrate ability and then teleports away at low health to make sure that someone survives and then the Frenzied Berserker fights on to vastly negative health and kills everything. When I say vastly negative, I mean that one time, he was below -1000. Silly Deathless Frenzy ability.

 

[diaglo]

I don't know if this is why the -10 rule was implemented, but it always seemed to me to be a rules patch to create some distinction between being incapacitated and dead.

i imagine it was.

the Supplement II Blackmoor version of hit locations was a bit too much.

 

[Dragonhelm]

Think of it this way. When you hit negative hit points, that's just D&D's way of allowing you to be "mostly dead".

 

[Umbran]

I'm guessing that Joe, like me, has experienced the phenomenon at higher levels where damage totals are so high that nobody is ever at any number of hit points between 0 and -9. When you are tossing around hundreds of damage per character, the 10 hit point buffer becomes insignificant unless you are very lucky.

Well, life's tough all over

Really, that rather makes sense to me - the system isn't supposed to completely eliminate instant death. At higher levels, there's more power being tossed around, in general. The character should be at much higher risk of instant death.

But then, no single damage system is going to make everyone happy all the time. But they have to make one the standard, right? This is what house rules are for.

 

[Desdichado]

Lots of things in d20 don't work (as well, at least) at high level, though.

I think the idea originally came from Bo Derek.

 

[Mercule]

It's one of the reasons why I've been playing around with the Fort save variant in Unearthed Arcana. No negatives. You get hit below your hit points, you make a Fortitutde save, dc 10 +2 for every 10 points over 0 you were hit for. You make it, you're disabled, miss it, you're dying, miss it by 10 or more, you're dead.

I love the UA variant -- probably my favorite alt. from that book. I go ahead and say -1/5 hp, though.

Especially at lower levels, with orcs, I advise that mooks get a penalty or just "no save", though. Otherwise, the game can turn moralizing really, really quick.