Where do you see (or want) 5.0 to go?

[I'm A Banana]

But only 4E made the design decision rampant for every class to contribute in each combat in each round. In that vein, just returning to any of the previous editions should do the trick, if that's what you want. No 5E needed.

Well, that's not what I want.

4e did make it paramount for every player to uniquely contribute in each combat in each round, and I think that's a positive development. I think it's important to turn that back around to the dungeon, rather than the combat.

5e should make it paramount for each player to uniquely contribute in each decision in each challenge in each dungeon.

So the dungeon itself provides a challenge against the entire party, that the entire party can participate in every action needed to "overcome the dungeon."

I also note that outside the dungeon (i.e. when it gets to wilderness exploration) 4E is already much better to handle the sort of game you envisage.

I don't quite agree. I don't think skill challenges or rituals as they exist now are really good mechanics for handling exploration, or out-of-combat problem-solving in general. There's bags of issues with both.

I don' think the clock needs to be turned back, I think we need to keep going forward, keeping 4e's advancements, and applying the lessons learned.

I think one of the lessons I've learned is that I don't care about individual encounters, I care about entire adventures. That it's not beating up monsters that makes my character heroic, it is accomplishing heroic deeds. That includes beating up monsters, but it also includes exploring new regions, gaining new items and powers, saving villages, leading armies, thwarting machinations, romancing princesses, and a million other adventures. And when I do beat up monsters, it is not just a group of kobolds, it is the king of kobolds, whom I fight in an epic battle in a trap-filled lair, surrounded by his minions. It's not a hit-and-damage-and-effect slog, it's a dynamic, skill-filled, tricky, multi-talent-testing, epic, scene. The last thing, 4e can do, but has some problems with.

This change in focus changes so much about how the basic game of 4e plays, so many core assumptions, that it really needs its own system. It changes powers lists, roles, XP, class and race, things like OAs and shifting and teleporting, skills, rituals, possibly defenses/saves, certainly HP and healing surges, likely item inventory, and a host of other cascading effects. You can start to get at it as 4e sits right now, but, heck, you can start to get at a lot of 4e decisions in 3e, too. That's kind of what an evolving system does, in my mind.

So I don't want to go back to other editions, but I do want to bring the idea of "Dungeons and Dragons" back from the game of "Encounters and Elves" that I may have been playing since 2008.

 

[Azgulor]

I think that, when designing a 5th edition of Dungeons & Dragons, it should be remembered that while the game CAN be used to craft a story and it CAN be used to simulate a fictional world, and indeed there should be some support for these things, D&D is first and foremost a game.

While D&D is a game, the point of it IS to portray a character within a story set in a fictional world. It's a role-playing game. And that's taking on a persona-kinda-role, not "I'm a striker" kind of role.

It ain't Risk, or Monopoly, Chutes & Ladders, or Stratego. The rules exist to provide a consistent framework for telling the story without resorting to player whim or GM fiat or "Bang! You're dead" "No I'm not, you missed!".

I'm all for solid mechanics, hell I crave them. But this idea of mechanics first, role-story-setting second to me is a prime example of losing the forest for the trees. It is also, to my view, one of the underlying problems in the split from 3.x to 4e.

I'm not saying it's bad-wrong-fun but by putting mechanics over role-playing, you're moving away from RPG to beer-n-pretzels board game. Those are fun, too but that's not what I want from a RPG.

I keep reading about how RPGs must evolve to rules-light, pick-up style games. They have their niche but I think the vast majority of the industry benefits from focusing on the using mechanics to support the role-playing story element.

To use video games as an illustration, if I'm going to invest time and energy into a video game RPG, give me Mass Effect, Dragon Age, or Knights of the Old Republic over Gauntlet or (dare I say it) World of Warcraft.

 

[bastrak]

I would like to see a version of the game that plays in fundamentally the same manner as OD&D, AD&D, BECMI, and D&D3. In other words, I would like the "Dungeons & Dragons" trademark to be applied to a roleplaying game that plays like the D&D game created by Gygax and Arneson.

That's not currently the case. I think it should be. So that's what I want to see out of 5th Edition.

I am inclined to agree.

 

[RangerWickett]

So I don't want to go back to other editions, but I do want to bring the idea of "Dungeons and Dragons" back from the game of "Encounters and Elves" that I may have been playing since 2008.

Do you want to fork this, and brainstorm ways to get your desired style of system? I'm sure there are plenty of indie games we could mine for ideas. Heck, maybe there's potential for a game product, Unearthed Arcana style, that could take 4e and give it a friendly shove in this direction.

 

[Henry]

All non ritual healing is invigoration... and inspiring the target to tap into deeper energy or reserves of spirit . Because 4e lacks any form of true wounding mechanic for heroes...http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-fan-creations-house-rules/240891-wound-system-2.html#post4649572 people experience a dissonance. 4e is the most consistant version in this regards... and its exactly because of this that we have martial archetypes with healing.... it isnt bing you are healed its bing your faith and hope is renewed and you are certain the tides of luck are in your favor ... and yup you are invigorated tapping in to hidden reserves of vigor only seen in heros.

I like to consider the healing surges the actual HP.

I'm well and good with the way healing surges work during the day -- it's the "*BING* you're back to full in 6 hours!" part. When you're smacked to -15 hp, and three strikes away from dying, it's not your loss of hope and vigor that's killing you - it's the sword blow that hurt you enough to put you on the ground. I have not problem with a healing surge getting you off that ground, pushing past the pain, and fighting on -- but after John Maclane has been through Die Hard, he didn't go through Die Hard 2 24 hours later. If the healing surges are the "real hit points" it still bugs me that they come back 24 hours later fully healed. I've toyed with making healing surges come back slower (maybe 1 per day, or 2 with total bed rest and TLC?), but I'd like to see some other ideas on the subject in D&D. If there's one thing that bugs me about 4E, it's the total loss of "lasting conditions", even in the form of optional rules.

 

[Glade Riven]

A lot of good responses here, and it has given me some ideas on things.

One thing I like about SW:Saga is that each book released offers up an optional mechanic to handle certain things - Like the Clone Wars book adding Mass Battle rules. Now, as to 5e core...

• 3.5/4e Stat generation (it really is the same)
• 4e defenses instead of saves
  • I'm not sure about going with a 4e style 1/2 level advancement (with an initial bonus to a specific defense based on stats) or the 3.5 chart advancement for BAB/Saves. 1/2 level slows it down, and cuts down on some of the extremes of 3.5
• Talent Tree on the classes, allowing a player to build a character of a class towards multiple roles (maybe not every role, but 2-3 roles). These talent trees would work like the power system of 4e or as a feat tree (perhaps certain feats in the talent tree are required to gain a power)
  • Keep a few Encounter and At-Will powers in this format, but max out with, say, 3 at wills and 5 encounter. Probably needs to be adjusted for balance.
• 3.5 spellcasting makes a partial return (AKA the dailies), with casters having to make choices on what they keep in their arsenal. These spells are the more powerful heavy hitting spells, but would have a progression chart like if the 3.5 bard (with the spells level 1-6 being equivalent to 3.5's 3-9). Lesser or utilitarian wizard spells would be handled through the talent trees.
• A 10th level paragon boost with a +2 stat boost, 3 appropriate skill boosts, and a paragon talent.
• Prestige classes that work like Saga.
• Decent cross-classing allowed.
• Skills would be 4e range with 3.5 advancement (no 1/2 level bonus)

This is just some ideas.
Addendum: Non-combat

Perhaps the talent tree could be taken a tad further - alternate a combat talent with a non-combat talent. So, first level would be rather heavy - a combat talent, a non-combat talent, and a feat. lvl 2: non-combat talent, lvl 3: feat, lvl 4: Combat talent, lvl 5: feat, etc. That sort of progression might be a little slow, though, compaired to what people are used to with Pathfinder & 4e

 

[DaveMage]

I predict 5th edition will not be called 5th edition - it will simply be Dungeons & Dragons: [x].

(Where [x] = whatever catchy name they come up with.)

It will be a vastly scaled back game that will allow for very basic, simple fun play, but will have expansion sets that can be purchased (such as an RPG-board game hybrid like "Descent").

Since the tabletop RPG fans are generally an aging lot, I doubt the expansive D&D RPG as we know it has a future beyond 4E at WotC (though I think it will exist for quite some time from smaller publishers).

However, keep an eye on the "Essentials" line. If it does really well, then you are probably looking at how a new edition would be rolled out.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I've toyed with making healing surges come back slower (maybe 1 per day, or 2 with total bed rest and TLC?), but I'd like to see some other ideas on the subject in D&D. If there's one thing that bugs me about 4E, it's the total loss of "lasting conditions", even in the form of optional rules.

You might want to try ruling that an "extended rest" is actually a week of straight bedrest, or something. Something to keep them from using them in the current adventure (only in the down time between adventures).

You also might want to make healing surges have a cost. For instance, if you run out of surges, maybe you have some sort of penalty (you're always weakened, or you're always slowed), or each surge actually has some other cost (can't surge without some rations; each surge gives you a -1 to hit; something like that). An extended rest puts you back at full health, but only gradually restores surges and undoes penalties.

The down side, of course, is that it can slow down pacing, and can mess with the challenge of the game (making it generally harder), but if you, say, allow a full rest at the end of every session (or only after 3 sessions, or only when they gain a level, or whatever), the pacing is regular, even if it's longer between long rests.

 

[Dykstrav]

I predict 5th edition will not be called 5th edition - it will simply be Dungeons & Dragons: [x].

If I remember correctly, third edition was simply called "Dungeons & Dragons" for a while before it was acknowledged as the third version of the Advanced Dungeons & Dragons game. Many early 3E supplements simply referred to it as "the current version of the game," or as "this version of the game." It wasn't until 3.5 was coming around that it was acknowledged as 3E.

 

[Mercule]

A return to the dungeon.

By that, I mean, a return to the dungeon as the basic element of gameplay.

Most of 3e and all of 4e specifies the encounter as the basic element of gameplay. Encounters are designed in detail, and played out in detail (especially combat encounters). Encounters are what you need resources for, and what consumes resources. Encounters are where you do things that need to be done. Encounters are where you play the game.

Nicely said. I've been trying to figure out why some of the balancing act bugs me, and this is a major factor. I don't care that rogues/thieves kinda suck in combat -- so long as they have some weight to pull through the rest of the dungeon. Etc. etc. etc.