D&D 3E/3.5 Which 3.5 spells aren't improvements

[Eldragon]

The spell change that really makes me mad at WotC was Jump. In 3.0, almost no one took it. You could jump really far and high, fun, useful, but not too powerful. Not really a combat spell, useful for jumping over moats and walls, etc. Now in 3.5 its only a +10 bonus at level 1, +20 at 5, and +30 at 9. A +10 bonus is not large enough to be able to rely on it to get the character to jump over a small pit. A level 1 wizard can still roll a 1, and fall to his death. At 5th level, a character can FLY over a moat or wall. Fly is much more useful than jump, and a whole lot more mages take it. At 9th level, The wizard has even more spells useful for getting past barriers.

So I want to know, what the heck was wrong with Jump?

 

[Scion]

Unfortunately, while I don't mind the duration in 3.5, there is one problem. Prep time. I don't like the 'screw' of "do you cast a spell to kill/disable the enemy, or do you spend a round of combat making one party member slightly better?"

even worse, ambush type situations are even more deadly than before. Those doing the attacking have any/all buffs that they want. Those defending have no real options any longer. Before, long term buffs meant that you could have a good portion of your defenses in place at all times, risky but possible. Now? no longer possible. This is a Bad Thing in my opinion

 

[Malacoda]

even worse, ambush type situations are even more deadly than before.

I am cool with that. Catching your opponents unawares is the point, afterall.

Those doing the attacking have any/all buffs that they want. Those defending have no real options any longer.

Considering that much of the time the characters have this over their foes, I'd say that the occasional turnabout is simply fair play.

Before, long term buffs meant that you could have a good portion of your defenses in place at all times, risky but possible. Now? no longer possible. This is a Bad Thing in my opinion

And some people seem to think that its a a good thing. I sure do. I really like the idea that characters sometimes have to make difficult choices in combat, such as "buff my companions or heal myself?" I don't want the players to have all their defenses in place at all times.

Note also that I am also a player, not just a GM, and as a player I am fine with the changes. This is not just a GM vs. Player thing.

 

[Gort]

On the stat buffs, am I the only one who's REALLY happy with how it's a +4 bonus instead of D4+1? So much neater.

My big problem with the all-buffs-all-day thing was that if a dispel or antimagic effect got thrown around, it took half an hour while everyone rewrote their character sheets.

Also, the longterm buffs made stat increasing magic items pretty pointless, until you were getting the big stuff. (+6 and up, although even this could be replicated with the right metamagic)

So yeah, I like spells having shorter durations.

 

[HeavyG]

In the thread I yanked those from, you mentioned you edited them from HeavyG's input. Were there changes after that.

My contribution was the Fast Healing / Regen exception, I remember.

Polar Ray I am totally confused by this one. 20d6 dmg as a ray to one creature. And this is worth an 8th level spell?! Look at delayed blast fireball, a 7th level spell. No touch attack, up to 20d6 dmg, and it can hit many creatures at once. I can do 12d6 with the 2nd level Scorching Ray spell for crying out loud! This should be, at the most, a 5th level spell.

Polar Ray has one single good use and that's killing large single fire-based critters like, say, red dragon end bosses. There's no save meaning they will always take full (i.e. double) damage and they are easy to hit with their pathetic touch AC. Watch them cry as their huge save bonuses avails them to naught.

But outside that single very specific case, it is an underpowered spell. I think the game needs this spell (i.e. a highish level damaging ray), but not necessarily at 8th level. Or, possibly adding a minor effect, such as a fort save to avoid being slowed for 1 rd / lvl would be cool.

While we might argue about he 1min/lv duration, the 1hour/lv duration was clearly too much. Especially at higher levels, we'd see a lot of clerics using some of their 2nd level slots to increase str, dex and con (Cat's Grace isn't on the cleric list, but you get it in a domain. Otherwise it was str and con) at the beginning of the day.

I wouldn't have had a problem with that. The problem with 3.0 buff spell has never been that you'd cast a whole bunch of spells every morning that lasted all day long, though the bookkeeping could become a nightmare (it took me easily 30 minutes to write down all the spell effects on everyone in the party and then explain it to the DM with my 15th level 3.0 cleric). Rather, the problem is that you could do all that spellcasting the day before, with extend spell and bead of karma, and get super good buffs that lasted at least through the next day, and had all your spell slots available for use at the same time. And, of course, multi-empowering got out of hand fast (I once rolled a +10 to my Con with Endurance. Hello 75 more hp for that day )

This is why I have no problem with 10m/lvl (essentially, this will last through a whole day's adventuring), but 1 hour per lvl is too much.

 

[shilsen]

On the stat buffs, am I the only one who's REALLY happy with how it's a +4 bonus instead of D4+1? So much neater.

My big problem with the all-buffs-all-day thing was that if a dispel or antimagic effect got thrown around, it took half an hour while everyone rewrote their character sheets.

Also, the longterm buffs made stat increasing magic items pretty pointless, until you were getting the big stuff. (+6 and up, although even this could be replicated with the right metamagic)

So yeah, I like spells having shorter durations.

No, you're not the only one. I love the +4 fixed change. Not only does it make bookkeeping easier, but it prevents the problems with multiple empowered buffs. And I'm all for lowering the durations, but I prefer the 10 min/lvl to 1 min/lvl so I house-ruled it.

 

[beaver1024]

Wow I guess no one used the stat buffs for anything other than combat then.

 

[coyote6]

Wow I guess no one used the stat buffs for anything other than combat then.

Nah, I used 'em (as a player) a couple of times for non-combat reasons -- a cleric used bull's strength to increase encumbrance capacities, so the party could travel faster. We even used the spell on horses a couple of times, IIRC.

I also used endurance for a similar purpose -- increasing Con so the people involved could force-march or run longer without collapsing. It was also used to boost Fort saves (vs. poison, disease, and negative levels).

I've seen every physical buff spell used as a kind of stop-gap lesser restoration (e.g., someone is poisoned or diseased and has taken ability damage, but there are no restorations immediately available, and stopping to rest & recover is not an immediate option).

None of those options are feasible at 1 minute/level; for long-distance travel, they aren't terribly feasible at 10 minutes/level.

 

[beaver1024]

Nah, I used 'em (as a player) a couple of times for non-combat reasons -- a cleric used bull's strength to increase encumbrance capacities, so the party could travel faster. We even used the spell on horses a couple of times, IIRC.

I also used endurance for a similar purpose -- increasing Con so the people involved could force-march or run longer without collapsing. It was also used to boost Fort saves (vs. poison, disease, and negative levels).

I've seen every physical buff spell used as a kind of stop-gap lesser restoration (e.g., someone is poisoned or diseased and has taken ability damage, but there are no restorations immediately available, and stopping to rest & recover is not an immediate option).

None of those options are feasible at 1 minute/level; for long-distance travel, they aren't terribly feasible at 10 minutes/level.

No one used increased Cha/Wis for boosts in Diplomancy, Sense Motive, Spot and Listen checks? No one used increase in Int for boost in bardic knowledge or knowledge checks in general or Search?

What an uncreative lot you are

Yeah none of the above are feasible now.

 

[Olive]

Yeah none of the above are feasible now.

That's simply not true. At least half the examples you gave are completely possible - knowledge checks etc. are basically instantaneous. The CHA based skills are pretty different, but metamagic etc makes this useable.

So I want to know, what the heck was wrong with Jump?

It's a first level spell! of course a 4th level spell is better! But at 9th level you may be alble to cast fly, but it's still nice to have somethign like jump to fill up the lower level slots other than magic missle.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned fly. Was it really necessary to split these into two spells?

I really, really like the new polymorphs, but I agree that a 'greater' baleful poly would be cool. I really like the new haste, harm etc. I mostly think that the spells are better than they used to be.