D&D 3E/3.5 Which 3.5 spells aren't improvements

[beaver1024]

That's simply not true. At least half the examples you gave are completely possible - knowledge checks etc. are basically instantaneous. The CHA based skills are pretty different, but metamagic etc makes this useable.

However you don't know when you're going to be making those knowledge checks. What if they don't allow retries? When you first get Eagles Splendor it only lasts for 3 minutes. That is way too short to help in any kind of diplomatic negotiation/gather information/bluff kind of situation. Even at 20th level where it lasts for 20 minutes, it's not going to help because you don't know when you are going to need it.

 

[Darklone]

Greater Magic Vestment? There ain't no such spell Magic Vestment, however, has had the same change as GMW, i.e. the +1 per 4 levels.

I have to kill a player.

Edit: Wow. I'm surprised. I can trust my players. He actually used the new version...

 

[shilsen]

I have to kill a player.

Edit: Wow. I'm surprised. I can trust my players. He actually used the new version...

Aw, that's sweet. Now just kill him anyway.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

While we might argue about he 1min/lv duration, the 1hour/lv duration was clearly too much. Especially at higher levels, we'd see a lot of clerics using some of their 2nd level slots to increase str, dex and con (Cat's Grace isn't on the cleric list, but you get it in a domain. Otherwise it was str and con) at the beginning of the day. Those who weren't doing that were using 3rd level slots for extended, 4th for empowered or 5th for maximized. Why ever waste an item slot on items for that? I could get pearls of power for less money (cast the spells in the morning, recall them and then just use the spells to convert them into cure spells).

They should also have toned down Greater Magic Weapon, in fact.

Clear to who? 1hour/level never meant anything. By the time it became all day people had items that did it anyway. And if they decided to not go the item route, they instead were expending another valuable resource spell power. And at the 1/min a level duration it isn't close to being arguable that its too short. Look at bulls str how much damage do you really expect to get out of that buff. Virtually every damaging spell of its level and from 1st level will outpace it in damage. And with the 1/min duraiton all its good for is combat and damage, and in its field it flatly fails. Look at the rest of the buffs and see what they do, and compare it to another spell that does the same or similar thing and they always end up worse.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

My contribution was the Fast Healing / Regen exception, I remember.




Polar Ray has one single good use and that's killing large single fire-based critters like, say, red dragon end bosses. There's no save meaning they will always take full (i.e. double) damage and they are easy to hit with their pathetic touch AC. Watch them cry as their huge save bonuses avails them to naught.

But outside that single very specific case, it is an underpowered spell. I think the game needs this spell (i.e. a highish level damaging ray), but not necessarily at 8th level. Or, possibly adding a minor effect, such as a fort save to avoid being slowed for 1 rd / lvl would be cool.




I wouldn't have had a problem with that. The problem with 3.0 buff spell has never been that you'd cast a whole bunch of spells every morning that lasted all day long, though the bookkeeping could become a nightmare (it took me easily 30 minutes to write down all the spell effects on everyone in the party and then explain it to the DM with my 15th level 3.0 cleric). Rather, the problem is that you could do all that spellcasting the day before, with extend spell and bead of karma, and get super good buffs that lasted at least through the next day, and had all your spell slots available for use at the same time. And, of course, multi-empowering got out of hand fast (I once rolled a +10 to my Con with Endurance. Hello 75 more hp for that day )

This is why I have no problem with 10m/lvl (essentially, this will last through a whole day's adventuring), but 1 hour per lvl is too much.

I'd agree that the over 1 day duraitons could set up some porblems where you'd be able to get the buffs without appearing to be spending the resource. Though by these levels the stat boosters would be cheap enough that this seems a fairly minor point. Me I'd rather spend some petty cash and not have to worry about dispels. But the multiple empower buffs um so, you got 75 bonus HP for the day and this was at least a 6th level spell. I fail to see the problem. A 6th level spell can easily remmove you and your party of those close to the same hps. So yippe you boosted your HP by 75 with one spell, me I take most of em away and I take away those same HP away from everyone with you. I think I got the more powerful spell. Especially when a 36,000 gp item or a measly 18,000 if self made would of given you 45 bonus HP for every day in your life.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Clear to who? 1hour/level never meant anything. By the time it became all day people had items that did it anyway. And if they decided to not go the item route, they instead were expending another valuable resource spell power. And at the 1/min a level duration it isn't close to being arguable that its too short. Look at bulls str how much damage do you really expect to get out of that buff. Virtually every damaging spell of its level and from 1st level will outpace it in damage. And with the 1/min duraiton all its good for is combat and damage, and in its field it flatly fails. Look at the rest of the buffs and see what they do, and compare it to another spell that does the same or similar thing and they always end up worse.

There is a difference between spending a substantial sum of money and using up an item space (especially if the DM doesn't let you make slot-less items) and using up a relatively weak spell slot. You have dozens of spell slots, but not very many item slots.

 

[Spatula]

No, you're not the only one. I love the +4 fixed change. Not only does it make bookkeeping easier, but it prevents the problems with multiple empowered buffs.

Of course, multiple empowerments aren't allowed in 3.5 anyway.

 

[Malacoda]

1hour/level never meant anything.

You are referring to your own games, right? Because it would be kinda silly to make these kind of blanket assumptions about everyone's game. Expecially given the number of people who have expressed that they did not like the 1 hour per level duration (though, admittingly, a fair number of people also think 1 minute per level was too harsh).

By the time it became all day people had items that did it anyway.

With a bit of intelligent forethought, you didn't need it to last all day to get great effect.

Plus, I am not claiming my players never had stat enhancing items. I was less concerned about them having one or two buffed ability scores, but them have like four buffed ability scores. All of them. All the time. That's a bit of exaggeration, but not by much, especially at mid+ levels with a day of foreplanning.

And if they decided to not go the item route, they instead were expending another valuable resource spell power.

They combined it with items (not stacking, multiple ability scores). And at some point 2nd level spell slots become expendable. Combine it with pearls of power and you can cast a lot of 2nd level spells if you have a wizard and a cleric in the party. Add a third spellcaster in there, like my group had, and it gets even worse.

But hey, if it wasn't a problem in your games, that's great. It was in mine, and it would seem a fair number of other's.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

With a bit of intelligent forethought, you didn't need it to last all day to get great effect.

True that. However, you did generally need to get it to last more than 1 min/level in order to get an effect that was worth using. As I alluded to earlier, there was always the choice between using buff spells or having extra spell slots to burn through with hasted hyper spellcasting and the latter choice was generally superior for single-battle situations. Buffing drew about even if they lasted through two battles and was superior over more than 2 battles.

Plus, I am not claiming my players never had stat enhancing items. I was less concerned about them having one or two buffed ability scores, but them have like four buffed ability scores. All of them. All the time. That's a bit of exaggeration, but not by much, especially at mid+ levels with a day of foreplanning

Where it's not an exaggeration, however, it is either obscuring the fact that it was a major tactical choice (ie. a mid-level sorceror with Cat's Grace, Bull's Strength, or Endurance as his primary known 2nd level spell) or it was something that happened anyway (since the character would buy several stat-buffing items and only used the spells to cover ones he couldn't afford).

They combined it with items (not stacking, multiple ability scores). And at some point 2nd level spell slots become expendable. Combine it with pearls of power and you can cast a lot of 2nd level spells if you have a wizard and a cleric in the party. Add a third spellcaster in there, like my group had, and it gets even worse.

It was quite common in Living Greyhawk (though I wouldn't have called it a "problem"). However, the primary reason it was common is that it was a gold-poor campaign where characters were often 10-20kgp behind their expected wealth per level guidelines and often did not have access to ability enhancing items. (I know my 13th level character still hasn't been able to find access to a belt of Giant strength). Stat buffing and item enhancing spells (GMW, Magic Vestment, etc) were common at least in part because characters were priced out of the more permanent and designer preferred enhancement methods.

A lower wealth campaign was simply going to see more use of stat-enhancing spells than a standard wealth campaign. (It's also likely to see more barbarians, more two-handed weapon wielders, and fewer sword and shield characters than it would otherwise see because, by mid levels, characters find magic items more vital to presenting a good defense than to presenting a good offense. A 9th level character with an AC of 30 (+1 dex, +11 +3 fullplate, +5 +3 shield, +1 ring of protection, +1 amulet of natural armor, +1 dodge) is likely to last significantly longer than a fighter with an AC of 19 (+3 dex, +5 +2 chain shirt, +1 ring of protection) or even an AC of 25 (as 30 but no shield). However, a 9th level character with an AC of 24 (+1 dex, +9 +1 fullplate, +3 +1 shield, +1 ring of protection) is not really likely to take that much less damage than a character with an AC of 18 (+3 dex, +1 chain shirt, +1 ring of protection)--especially against tough single or dual monster encounters. Consequently, if he's going to get hit anyway, he might as well get the extra damage from rage and a two-handed weapon). Wealth levels have a very dramatic effect on a campaign. The popularity of 3.0 buffs in Living Greyhawk was as much a part of that as of anything else.

 

[MerakSpielman]

Now that this has degenerated into a buff-discussion, I might as well put in my 2cp.

I don't see buffs as a routine thing to cast anymore. They use up spell slots for very little relative benefit, if they only last for a single battle.

ON THE OTHER HAND, I see a greater number of buff-potions being used. If casters don't want to use up their spell slots buffing up the party, I can see them using them during down-time to craft up a bunch of potions. Before major battles, people quaff the potions they need and the party doesn't use any spell slots at all. Scrolls are good too, but only the casters can use them. The "potion before battle" concept is pretty cool, IMHO.