D&D 5E (2024) Which class is the most durable (level 1)?

[Zardnaar]

That depends on how many short rests the fighter takes and requires not using those spell slots for anything other than healing. You're paladin model took 16 CON and 16 CHA at the expense of STR (or DEX)?

2 short rests is 3 uses of Second Wind. 3 short rests is 4 uses of Second Wind. 1 short rest is 2 uses of Second Wind.

Paladins are definitely a solid choice for durability, but I don't think they beat out fighters because the a short rest recovery method for Second Wind is better than a long rest recovery method for spell slots and Lay on Hands.

This.

To many variables.

I think you could do a shortlist of top tier candidates.

 

[mellored]

Beat fighter at what?

Not dying.

 

[FrogReaver]

That depends on how many short rests the fighter takes and requires not using those spell slots for anything other than healing. Your paladin model took 16 CON and 16 CHA at the expense of STR (or DEX)?

IMO, all that is probably fine, though personally I wouldn’t lower attack stat, but 14 vs 16 isn’t a big deal).

2 short rests is 3 uses of Second Wind. 3 short rests is 4 uses of Second Wind. 1 short rest is 2 uses of Second Wind.

. Should be +1 as 0 short rests is 2, etc.

Paladins are definitely a solid choice for durability, but I don't think they beat out fighters because the a short rest recovery method for Second Wind is better than a long rest recovery method for spell slots and Lay on Hands.

I’m coming around to them.

 

[ECMO3]

That depends on how many short rests the fighter takes and requires not using those spell slots for anything other than healing. You're paladin model took 16 CON and 16 CHA at the expense of STR (or DEX)?

Why would you take 16 Charisma if you were building for duribility at 1st level?

The 2 most important abilities are Dexterity and Constitution. The next two are Strength and Wisdom.

2 short rests is 3 uses of Second Wind. 3 short rests is 4 uses of Second Wind. 1 short rest is 2 uses of Second Wind.

2+ short rests is going to be very unlikely for a 1st level PC before leveling, especially if there are meaningful fights. 1 short rests will be uncommon.

1 short rest is 3 uses of second wind which in play is going to average around 5 hps healed each. The average roll on the dice is 6.5 but if you have 13 hit points the only way to average is 6.5 healed per use is to wait until you have 1 or 2 hit points remaining to use it. That is not something that is easy to do in play.

So if you break it out by hit points, here is the average healed using 2nd Wind on a 13 hp fighter, based on how many hps you have when you use second wind.

hp remaining when you use second wind : average number hp healed
12 hps remaining: 1 hp healed
11: 2 hp healed
10: 2.9 hp healed on average
9: 3.7 hp healed on average
8: 4.4 hp healed on average
7: 5 hp healed on average
6: 5.5 hp healed on average
5: 5.9 hp healed on average
4: 6.2 hp healed on average
3: 6.4 hp healed on average
2: 6.5 hp healed on average
1: 6.5 hp healed on average

So if we are talking about durability, when you calculate the value of 2nd wind you need to consider when you are going to use that. If you are going to use it after any hit then that is going to be worth about 4-5 hps on average. If you are going to wait until a lower threshold then it is worth more but you are accepting a risk that you get killed before you get a chance to use it and you need to consider that chance in any discussion on durability.

The Paladin on the other hand has 5hps of healing in LOH and 2 spells slots.

LOH does not suffer from this effect because it is a pool of hps, not a pool of uses. The 5 hps are always worth 5hps unless you get taken down from max before you get a turn (and in that case second wind does not work either). If you take 1 damage, on the next round you use a bonus action and heal 1 hp and still have 4 remaining. This means your LOH pool is usually going to be worth more in play than a single use of second Wind.

After LOH the Paladin has 2 spell slots.

Cure Wounds with an 8 Charisma is going to average 8hps on the dice. Just talking in terms of hps, the only time 2nd Wind is mathematically more valuable on a 13hp PC is if you have exactly 11 hps remaining when you use it.

Finally a Paladin gets LOH plus 2 spell slots no matter how many Short Rests and regardless of if he is damaged between short rests them.

 

[FrogReaver]

Not dying.

Yea. I think before i was still treating cure wounds as 1d8 instead of 2d8.

Paladin should be more durable with cure wounds and lay on hands. He will miss the +1AC but it’s not enough to put the fighter ahead IMO.

One thing I’ve not considered on barbarian is ehp per round. While raging against most damage he does get a lot more there as Paladin/fighter cannot heal till the next turn.

 

[FrogReaver]

I now think it’s between Paladin and Barbarian. Instead of Fighter and Barbarian.

I went agead and changed my vote to Paladin.

 

[TorgoTheWhite]

Why would you assume the barbarian gets it and not the fighter?

Because the comp fighter was human w/ tough and magi initiate feats. So, just going with the comp. Could be Stoliath mag-initiate... then you are giving up some to have less HP

 

[TorgoTheWhite]

Yea. I think before i was still treating cure wounds as 1d8 instead of 2d8.

Paladin should be more durable with cure wounds and lay on hands. He will miss the +1AC but it’s not enough to put the fighter ahead IMO.

One thing I’ve not considered on barbarian is ehp per round. While raging against most damage he does get a lot more there as Paladin/fighter cannot heal till the next turn.

Paladin's 40+ eHP is formidable. Lay on hands, as a bonus action is solid. Cure wounds starts to fall into the lost action economy category though.. which means more now with weapon mastery (sap or topple), also, the same thing previously mentioned about not completely scrapping dmg dealing.

 

[FrogReaver]

Paladin's 40+ eHP is formidable. Lay on hands, as a bonus action is solid. Cure wounds starts to fall into the lost action economy category though.. which means more now with weapon mastery (sap or topple), also, the same thing previously mentioned about not completely scrapping dmg dealing.

Sure. I mean it’s 2 actions per day that it might cost you, I don’t think that’s terrible. Though missing out on sap for those attacks is a defensive negative. I'm not sure how to really compare 3 extra saps per day vs not.

Probably can do something like compute chance to hit with and without sap. Estimate the damage a single attack would do against a level 1 pc. The difference in DPR there would be the hp saved per attack. I don't think it will be a ton, but it could be worth something like +1 to 5 ehp for the fighter in the comparison.