Which class is the most useless?

[Crothian]

Lastly, how useful a character is in a fight is a huge deal in most games. I seriously doubt that it didn't cross anyones mind when they voted.

I think you are right. But the question is broader then just fights and people are really limited their answer to useful only in a fight. Characters are more then just adventurers but they are only being judged as such.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

People's objection to a character class boiled down to the essentials: Disgruntled Player -
(Insert Character Class Name) is useless because he can't make a great wyrm his bitch at first level.

Ah, but Disgruntled Player #2 is complaining because [Insert Class Name Here] was able to use Diplomacy to make the Great Wyrm his bitch... and like it!

The Auld Grump

 

[Arkhandus]

I don't know where all this 'monks are hard to kill' talk is coming from. It's tough to make their Armor Class even respectable, let alone effective, and if they do that, their other abilities are surely suffering greatly from lack of attention (no infinite cash, feats, and stat boosts to spend on offense, defense, and utility).

And they can't really boost their Hit Points well without neglecting stuff. They need too many good ability scores to be effective, such that most monks will at least kinda suck compared to everyone else. They can't focus on good Intelligence for skills unless they sacrifice what little combat potency or resilience they may otherwise have.

Try playing a monk in a standard wealth or slightly-below-average-wealth campaign with typical point-buy stats or similar rolled stats (25-32 point buy is what I've encountered in various group's games). Only in rare games with absurd point-buy totals or dice-rolling methods, with high wealth, would a monk do particularly well. Also keep in mind that very little of the monk's perceived power and flexibility has anything to do with low- to mid-level monks.

How would monks have loads of extra cash for miscellaneous equipment? They need lots of not-so-cheap magic items to make their AC, attack rolls, and damage be any kind of decent. Several of the items they need share the same body location slot, and are thus non-viable (or need to be made for other slots at greater expense, and specially commissioned by the monk beforehand). Bracers of Armor are more expensive and limited than simple magic armor, and can't normally receive special armor abilities (though some books, like Arms & Equipment Guide, allow it). Monks can't use shields without suffering ASF with some abilities (or losing some perhaps), and no magic items really replace a magic shield fully. Monks need to pump Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, and Wisdom to really be effective, unlike any other class.

My monk that focused on Dexterity and Wisdom (AC and saves, in other words), in a 32-point buy game, would vehemently debate the survivability of monks. He's been beaten within an inch of his life in half or a third of the battles he's been in, done very little damage to enemies, and had poor luck at hitting anything in the first place. Couldn't grapple worth a cr**, couldn't take a hit very well, couldn't dodge very often against equal-CR foes, and wasn't at all uber at chasing stuff or fighting spellcasters. Enemies on horseback or with Fly spells still escaped him, enemies with bows still maimed him with rapid shot barrages, and he was still plenty vulnerable to magic missiles and summoned monsters. Couldn't do much against the giants he fought on a couple of occasions (couldn't take many hits from them either), easily got beaten down by flanking rogues, and almost never managed to fight anything solo (always needed someone else to do the majority of damage, before the monk could die of accumulated wounds).

 

[Crothian]

Only in rare games with absurd point-buy totals or dice-rolling methods, with high wealth, would a monk do particularly well. Also keep in mind that very little of the monk's perceived power and flexibility has anything to do with low- to mid-level monks.

Let us see. Our game is medium point buy, we had about the wealth of characters a level or two lower, and we were low to mid level; and the monk did just fine. Obviosly we can only judge these things based on our own expereinces but it just makes me wonder what in my game is going on to make them so different from yours?

 

[Nifft]

I feel the overwhelming urge to make a party of Monks & Bards.... let's see:

Main Melee: Monk
Support Melee: Scout
Support Melee: Dragon Shaman
Support Arcanist: Bard Archer


... or perhaps just 3 Monks and one Bard. I think my PCs will face a party like this very soon. I'll let y'all know how it goes.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Slife]

People's objection to a character class boiled down to the essentials:

A properly optimized halfelf bard diplomat can do that.

 

[replicant2]

That's already what my group does, I don't think anyone has made a diplomacy roll at all, and we've gotten a lot done. I personally just pretend it doesn't exist in my game. If you need to speak to an NPC, you'll actually speak to him, and actually attempt to sway him with words. If nothing at least it teaches my players a valuable real-life skill.

I've never cared for the ;
*rolls a diplomacy check* *scores a 39* "There's a a giant tree made of pure platinum over there."
NPC: "Oh my god I believe you! I believe you so freaking much!!"

...and yet, tossing fireballs and turning undead is accepted without question.

Even if you don't like how the mechanics work, there's a need for social skills. You can cut them out, but in so doing you tie the players' diplomacy skills, charisma, and intelligence to that of their characters'. And that isn't right. Should physically weak players not be allowed to play fighters?

 

[Drowbane]

Druid - 16votes (at the time of my post)

Who are these people, and what manner of crack have they been smoking?

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

I voted Rogue: Asside from their skill points, rogue does 2 special things: Sneak Attack and Trap-Disarming. In any typical adventure, only one of those two are useful at any one time. In dungeons full of nasty traps, rogue typically face undead and constructs, against which they can't sneak attack. In an adventure where rogues fight living foes, they don't need to worry about traps. (Who traps their own home? A lich with Negative energy traps, maybe. I know I don't have a crossbow set up to blast anyone who opens my door...)

And at high level, Heavy fortification armor is like standard.

 

[Victim]

How would monks have loads of extra cash for miscellaneous equipment? They need lots of not-so-cheap magic items to make their AC, attack rolls, and damage be any kind of decent. Several of the items they need share the same body location slot, and are thus non-viable (or need to be made for other slots at greater expense, and specially commissioned by the monk beforehand). Bracers of Armor are more expensive and limited than simple magic armor, and can't normally receive special armor abilities (though some books, like Arms & Equipment Guide, allow it). Monks can't use shields without suffering ASF with some abilities (or losing some perhaps), and no magic items really replace a magic shield fully. Monks need to pump Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, and Wisdom to really be effective, unlike any other class.

My monk that focused on Dexterity and Wisdom (AC and saves, in other words), in a 32-point buy game, would vehemently debate the survivability of monks. He's been beaten within an inch of his life in half or a third of the battles he's been in, done very little damage to enemies, and had poor luck at hitting anything in the first place. Couldn't grapple worth a cr**, couldn't take a hit very well, couldn't dodge very often against equal-CR foes, and wasn't at all uber at chasing stuff or fighting spellcasters. Enemies on horseback or with Fly spells still escaped him, enemies with bows still maimed him with rapid shot barrages, and he was still plenty vulnerable to magic missiles and summoned monsters. Couldn't do much against the giants he fought on a couple of occasions (couldn't take many hits from them either), easily got beaten down by flanking rogues, and almost never managed to fight anything solo (always needed someone else to do the majority of damage, before the monk could die of accumulated wounds).

Getting mage armor from a friendly arcane caster makes a big difference in terms of monk defense. A lowish level monk might go from say paired 16s in Dex and Wis to get a rather poor 16 total AC to a decent 20 AC. It also saves quite a bit of money on bracers of armor. Item affinities are flexible enough that the monk isn't screwed by slots - Wisdom boosters could also go into the mental boosts of the headband slot instead of amulet, etc.

Also, I think monks work better using STR. With high unarmed damage, monks can hurt things in a grapple - especially since they can get Imp Grapple as bonus feat, or fairly cheaply. Grappling is based on STR. Improved Trip as a bonus feat - also a STR based mechanic. Flurry of Blows offers extra attacks at full STR bonus to damage, unlike normal 2 weapon fighting. Obviously, without armor you can't skimp too much on Dex though.