Which Class or classes do you feel are unbalanced-too powerful?

[IamIan]

I voted palladin and monk...
Monk is the long one get comfy

In truth the classes are well balanced if any two are a bit off I think it would be these.

reasons... I know everyone keeps wondering why anyone would take monk...

so I will start with Palladin
they are only class in 3.5 to get 2 attributes added for each save...
they get good HP second only to barbarians.
they get the best base attack on par with the fighter or barbarian.
they get spells the fighter and barbarian don't get.
lay on hands gives them feel healing of themselves even before spells but can also be used
as a weapon against undead...
they as far as magic goes are 1/2 cleric but they get HP and base attack of fighter but the
powers and such they get more than compensate for lack of feats...


now monk....
the only class that doesn't have to spend any money on weapons or armor which is a big
expense...
they have the best saves in the game except for paladin with fortitude...
all the other classes if robed and naked have taken a serious blow and are dramatically
weaker the monk is not nearly as reduced.
monks not having to spend money on weapons armor ingredients church offerings etc...
means that they will be the first people in the group to be able to afford magic
equipment... or bonuses.
monks have skill selection I would say tied for 2nd with the bard with the rogue being of
course number one.
Monks get dex and Wis added for AC dodge bonuses and additional bonuses...
Monks can make great grapplers... better than I would say any other class... and grappling
is a far more powerful ability when done right than 90% ever realize...
by mid level monk unarmed with no help from magic are doing per hit as much as 2
handed weapons do... and why wouldn't they have magic help...
they by mid level are doing crazy amounts of attacks and they have the second best base
attack rate .....

by the end A fighter in armor vs a Monk not in armor

Monk
Dex 18+2Race+5Lvs+5Book+6Item = 36 for +13 to AC
Wis 17+5Book+6Item = 28 for +9 to AC
Class bonus +4 AC

Compared to fighter
Mitheral +5 Full Plate 13 Armor max of +3 Dex
Mitheral +5 Tower Shield +9 Armor max dex +4

That’s it all other stuff can pretty much both classes can get and use… both can use ring of protection or natural armor ect….

So fighter has base10+13Armor+9Shield+3Dex = 35
So monk has base10+13Dex+9Wis+4AC = 36

The monk starts the same as low level fighter who can’t afford much armor
Mid level the fighter pulls ahead a little
By the end the Monk passes the fighter’s AC still without the weight or skill penalty.
----------------------
Base attack…
Fighter is +3 better by Lv 11 and +5 better by Lv 20
Ahhh
But you forget young one … any class can get the fighter’s base attack
Transformation Spell Lv6 Times Caster Lv12 Times 2,000 = 144,000
So for 12 Rounds 5 times per day anybody can have fighter’s base attack
…….
In the beginning they are virtually the same
So by mid level fighter has tiny edge over monk in the to hit category… (+3)
By the end the monk catches the Fighter in to hit bonuses.
----------
what about damage ?
Monk goes up to 2d10+Str+5Enchantment average 12+Str+Enchantment
Fight can get 2d6+1½ Str+5Enchantment+4from feats ~ 12+1½Str+Enchantment
Looks like the fighter…. But looks are deceiving….
Monk’s get more attacks 1 more at level 1
2 more at full base attack with no penalty by Lv 11
which means by the end the monk with transformation has the same base attack as
the fighter +20 / +15 / +10 / +5…. But the Monk’s Flurry of Blows does …
+20 / +20 / +20 / +15 / +10 / +5….. by then the monk can easily afford….
Boots of speed for haste …. +20 / +20 / +20 / +20 / +15 / +10 / +5
In other words the monk may not get 1½Str for Damage but he gets at least 2 more full
hits in than the fighter….
Str for either is the same … 18+5Book+6Item+5Lv = 34 or +12 Damage
+18 for two handed 1½Str
sooo….. 12+12+E = 24+E vs 12+18+E = 30+E
ahhhh yes but you are forgetting those extra attacks….
E’s cancel so it leaves monk 24 , 24 , 24 , 24 , 24 , 24 = 144
Fighter is 30 , 30 , 30 , 30 = 120
So monk does more damage even if they both hit with every blow
More likely the monk will hit more often then fighter as
Fighter only has one +20 base attack and the monk has 3.

Damage dealing goes to monk..
--------------
saving throws….. this is a no brainer monk has better saves by lv 1
Monk has better saves than anybody by lv10
Monk has wonder saves better than everybody by lv20
Only possible exception is the fort save of the paladin.
-------------
Skills…. Monks beat fighter’s hands down….
--------------
Monk powers are more powerful than the extra feats
---------------
HP….. ok Fighter has extra HP on average 1 more per level…
For a huge +20 by Lv 20……
Ohhhhh…. Wait the monk can in addition to any magic items either has can
Heal 2x Monk Lv or by then it is 40 HP worth of extra healing…
Fighter gets 1 more HP per level monk gets extra heal for more…

Monk wins here tooo.
--------------
Monk’s unarmed will automatically get DR beating abilities others have to pay for.
----------
Monk get DR everyone but barbarians have to pay for
-----------
Spring attack on a high level monk is devastating… they are too fast.
Base +60 = 90 for most + 30 Haste = 120 or more
he is 60 feet away... spring attacks you... doesn't provok attack of opertunity and then
after his attack he is 60 feet away again....
---------------
graapling is devistating if done right
-------------
if the fighter / barbarian / paladin / etc... are disarmed very likely for a good monk to do
then they are going to be in for a world of hurt.

 

[Nail]

No Psion? Well then...."None".

 

[Nail]

...So fighter has base10+13Armor+9Shield+3Dex = 35
So monk has base10+13Dex+9Wis+4AC = 36 ...

This is your analysis of AC for a Monk vs. Fighter? You've got to be kidding me. :\

 

[IamIan]

by the way... head to head clearic vs monk.... cleric goes down hard....

in the begining either could die from slipping on wet floor

in the middle the cleric needs first to find a hiding monk and then keep him at a comfy distance to have a chance.... which is already nearly impossible...
speed 30 +30 Monk +30 Haste = 90 x5 Run Feat 450 feet away to in your face
mobility helps with attack of opertunity but spring attack means 45 feet away hits you provokes no attack of opertunity and is then 45 feet away again....
asuming he doesn't just use flurry of blows and stay in close range.. or grapple..

High levels.... forget it nothing with a save will work on the monk between his base saves ability score bonuses and a +5 to alll saves Item.... AC he is damn hard to hit at all even with otherwise useful touch attacks... and now his base speed can be up to 120 for a run of 600 feet a spring attack of 60 and 60 back or just 115 in and 5 back... he has soo many attacks he is devistating.... oh and by this point ts is even harder to find him in the first place.

cleric sees monk 600 feet away... cleric immediately prays for god to save his worthless soon to be ending life... god conciders... and the fate of the cleric and monk hang in the balance.

 

[IamIan]

This is your analysis of AC for a Monk vs. Fighter? You've got to be kidding me. :\

as I said... everything else they can both use...
they can both use ring of protection so no difference
they can both get 50% miss chance with ring of blinking so no difference...
they can both get natural armor no difference....
etccc.....
etcc....

the only difference is the fighter uses armor and shield the monk doesn't

 

[lukelightning]

I chose cleric not because it is specifically too strong in the core rules, but because with each book the cleric becomes more powerful. More domains, more spells (all of which the cleric can access for free), and especially more utility out of turn/rebuke.

I am tired of turn/rebuke becoming a reservior of extra power. It is supposed to be for dealing with the undead; now it's one of the most powerful and useful abilities. Spend a feat and do virtually anything with your turning! Empower spells! Smite evil! Boost to movement! What's next? Use turning attempts to open doors and disarm traps?

Plus clerics are taking over other class roles. With the right spells and domains (and divine feats) a cleric can replace just about any class. When I saw magic missile on a domain list I knew it went too far. Magic missile!

Druids are pretty powerful too, but at least they have a focus.

 

[Nail]

the only difference is the fighter uses armor and shield the monk doesn't

And amazing stats, apparently......

 

[Pseudonym]

I chose bard, because no one ever chooses bard.

In all seriousness, though, I'd say druid is the most powerful PHB class and low to mid levels.

 

[pbd]

I think the people that voted monk are just screwing with you guys.

Well that may be so, but each class has the oportunity to shine, depending on cercumstances.

IamIan point sout the situation where a monk may be more powerful. I find this to hold true; in out current campaing we are playing in a low magic/low material world (it is even difficult to get steel or metal weapons) and I am playing a monk (actually created before I knew the specifics of the game world) who definately isn't as affected by this as the other characters.

Fighter "I can't find a sword or armor"

Monk "I just punch 'em inna head, It don't even matter if I got clothes on!"

But since this is a hmebrew campaign, that definately changes the basica ssumptions on wealth and materials, it is an exceptyion. And while the Monk shines, he isn't overpowered.

 

[Merlion]

This question is too broad. What do we mean when we say "balanced" or "unbalanced." Don't get me wrong, the question is straight-foward, but in terms of what?

A basic game involving accasional elements of most things.

All the classes have their highpoints and low points. But honestly, just as a good DM should be able to design a situation that helps one character shine over the rest ... a good DM should be able to design a situation that frustrates one character over the other.....Honestly, I think DMs need to take it upon themselves to be more creative instead of whining about the power of some classes. That sounds really harsh, I know. But I think it is true. When I DM I hold myself accountable to designing situations where different characters shine and where different characters get frustrated.

Well, thats all well and good I suppose. But the rules shouldnt make that uneccesarily diffacult, in either direction.

There are, unfortunatitly, some classes for which this is going to be much more diffacult, and even for a good DM its going to be hard to avoid having a class dominate, or tend to get the shaft (if using the rules as written...if as a DM you have to alter a class or whatever to have it be balanced, then obviously there is a problem).

For instance, take the Cleric. Roleplaying "restrictions" aside, a Cleric played by someone who knows the rules, once they get past low levels, is going to be very diffacult to challenge. I've seen a number of Cleric players who have spoken of how they always felt safe playing a Cleric, because their defenses were such that they never felt they needed to worry or were threatned by much of anything in the game.

On the other hand, if you want to run an Undead heavy campaign and someone really wants to play a Rogue, that person is often going to have a lot of trouble really contributing in combat.

In my experience, in the modern RPG home-play era, players almost always want to stand out and be different and individual, even if it costs them to do so. Even if you could prove that one class was twice as powerful as all others, I expect half of any group would refuse to play it because it was too boring. (In fact, I've tried to get a party of all dwarven clerics going, and encountered overwhelming resistance to the idea.)

This is an important point. Contrary to what many say who seem to think everything in the rules is just fine, just because a class is overpowered doesnt mean everyone is always going to want to play it. And just because people avoid a given class, doesnt mean it isnt overpowered.

Like the Cleric for example. Its obviously at the very least among the strongest classes (in truth its *the* strongest class, enough to be considered overpowered), and yet many people do avoid it. But not because its not powerful...usualy because either they dont want to play what they still think of as a "walking band aid", or for roleplaying reasons...I think a lot of people dont really want to play the "priest", conceptually.

IMO, any class from D&D, whether they're from the PH, Complete series, ECS, etc., can become "overpowered" with careful planning & strategy. Cleric, Rogue, Monk - it doesn't matter, they're only as good as the person who plays them.

This is simply inaccurate. The player obviously makes a difference, but the mechanics are what decide what a character or a class can or cannot do. And some classes have more options than others. Some of the classes more or less require a clever player to really be good, while others are going to generally be strong more or less no matter what.

However, they are both limited by the amount the GM puts into forcing them to play their religious doctrines, either by protecting or balancing nature (druids) or by serving the goals of their deity or religious domains (clerics).

Roleplaying restrictions do not balance mechanical advantages.

Also wizards because of scry+teleport. Any time the DM has to keep your class in mind when designing adventures/altering modules, then there's some unbalancing going on.

I honestly dont see why people freak out about this. So you can find, and get to a bad guy. So what? And scrying can be blocked.


[QUOTEKisanji Arael]There are perhaps one or two that are underpowered, but that's it. In general, ranger still needs work, as does straight bard. However, while ranger is a failure even in combinations, I've seen bard combinations that by twentieth level were far out-shining all those around them. Sorc and Wizard are balanced in relation to one another; if one is over-powered, then they both are. I don't think so, though. Cleric hits a niche and that's it. Eh, Druids might be, but I don't think so.[/QUOTE]


Um...Druids might be overpowered, but Clerics "hit a niche" and are fine?

Clerics hit a niche all right. Every niche in the game.


[QUOTEFireLance]I wonder how much of the cleric's apparent power is due to his ability to cast self-buffs such as divine favor, divine power and righteous might. If almost all the cleric's spellpower had to be used to heal and buff other PCs (which is supposed to be his primary function anyway), would you still consider him to be overpowered?[/QUOTE]


Well, the thing about it is, all the Clerics best buffs are self only

Truthfully, the Cleric isnt really very good at buffing/enhancing the party. Just themselves. A Bard or a Wizard is better at actually enhancing the rest of the party.

Offensively anyway. Now they do have some nice defenses they can cast on others (Spell resistance, Death Ward, Freedom of Movement). But I've never understood why those spells are limited to Clerics and Druids (or just Clerics in the case of Spell Resistance).

Now yea theres the healing. But also remember that Clerics have the most daily spell slots of any preperation-based caster.

This will help reinforce the point that a cleric's role is to heal the other party members and to make the other party members perform better, or alternatively to heal everyone and to make everyone perform better with spells such as bless, prayer, mass cure wounds and mass bull's strength

But that isnt the Clerics role. Not if you look at the mechanics. Healing, to an extent yes but not until after combat anyway...and really they arent that good at buffing the party. From about 7th level on, during combat the Cleric is going to help the party more in an offensive role. Early on by self buffing and meleeing, and later as an offensive spellcaster. And then on top of that they can throw out the occasional emergency in combat cure spell as needed.

What you suggested would make that more their role however.


[QUOTEIamIan]by the way... head to head clearic vs monk.... cleric goes down hard....[/QUOTE]


Eh...maybe. The Monk is one of the only classes that has the defenses to get past a Clerics offensive and immobilization spells. However all the Cleric has to do is cast Divine Power and beat the crud out of the Monk.

I chose cleric not because it is specifically too strong in the core rules, but because with each book the cleric becomes more powerful. More domains, more spells (all of which the cleric can access for free), and especially <b>more utility out of turn/rebuke. </b>I am tired of turn/rebuke becoming a reservior of extra power. It is supposed to be for dealing with the undead; now it's one of the most powerful and useful abilities. Spend a feat and do virtually anything with your turning! Empower spells! Smite evil! Boost to movement! What's next? Use turning attempts to open doors and disarm traps?

I agree, except they are too strong in core rules, and additional stuff...mostly all the insanity in Complete Divine, just made it a lot worse.


Now I like feats that let you take a given resource and use it in different ways, but some of the Divine feats simply allow things that shouldnt be allowed (like Divine Metamagic and Domain Spontaneity)