Which Class or classes do you feel are unbalanced-too powerful?

[gabrion]

IamIam-since I've seen these discussions go round and round so many times, with no end it sight, would you like to settle this in an arena style cleric v. monk battle, or wouldn't that prove anything?

 

[Shin Okada]

IamIam-since I've seen these discussions go round and round so many times, with no end it sight, would you like to settle this in an arena style cleric v. monk battle, or wouldn't that prove anything?

I agree. It is going round and round. And it seems that IamIan has very different way of thinkiing and experience on this topic to other people. So let's stop this argument.

 

[Storm Raven]

Without 36,000 spent on belt of Giant Strength... he loses +6 to Strength...

the monk can get the same feats to help...

Without the Belt using up the vast chunk of money instead of buying +1 or +2 weapons and armor...

the Fighter is 6 lower in Str.... -3 to Grapple cancels his +3 from Base Attack....

but Monk is still doing d10+9 but the less strength fighter now is even on grapple bonuses but only does d4+6....

so if he spends the money on Magic weapons and armor instead ... yes he is a weaker grappler... but has better to hit and better AC...

and what feat would let you deal with the 90 Speed Monk Spring attacking you from 45 ~ 50 feat away and then being 40 ~ 45 feet away after ???

No matter how you cut it, the monk you have put forward is going to be toast in the face of almost any reasonably built 10th level fighter. The BAB, hit points, and punch of the fighter will just overwhelm him, in a hurry. Here's a sample fighter, built straight from the core rules, using 24 point buy, and 49,000 gp:

10th level Human Fighter.

Str 22 (16 base, +2 level ups, +4 belt), Int 10, Wis 10, Dex 12, Con 16 (14 base +2 amulet), Cha 8; Fort +9, Reflex +4, Will +4; Init +1; Move 20 feet; AC 22 (+10 armor, +1 Dex, +1 ring); HD 10d10+30; HP 85; BAB +10/+5; Grapple +20; Attacks greatsword +19/+14 melee (2d6+12 +1d6 fire, slashing, 17-20 x2), or] spiked gauntlet +17/+12 melee (1d4+6, piercing, 20 x2), or composite longbow +15/+15/+10 ranged (1d8+4, piercing, 20 x3, 110 feet x10), or javelin +15/+15/+10 ranged (1d6+6, piercing, 20 x2, 30 feet x5); Feats: Cleave, Great Cleave, Greater Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Improved Critical (Greatsword), Improved Grapple, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Quick-Draw, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Weapon Specialization (Greatsword); Skills: Climb +15, Handle Animal +4, Ride +17, Swim +7.

Equipment:

+2 Mithral Full Plate - 14,650 gp
+1 Flaming Greatsword - 8,350 gp
+4 Belt of Giant Strength - 16,000 gp
+2 Amulet of Health - 4,000 gp
+1 Ring of Protection - 2,000 gp
+1 Cloak of Resistance - 1,000 gp

Mighty (+4) Masterwork Composite Longbow - 800 gp
Masterwork Alchemical Silver Spiked Gauntlet - 325 gp
Masterwork Cold Iron Spiked Gauntlet - 310 gp
3 Masterwork Javelins - 903 gp
Masterwork Heavy Steel Shield - 170 gp

Gold remaining for sundry items (minor potions, mount, arrows, food, etc.) - 492 gp

His AC is 10 points higher than the monk. His damage output far surpasses the monk (his average hit with a greatsword inflicts 22.5 damage, and he gets two swipes with it per round). If the monk dances around outside, he can just pull out his ranged weapons and pepper him from a distance. If the monk grapples him, he can pummel his foe, inflicting lethal damage with his spiked gauntlets often enough to kill the monk on a regular basis - he's almost assured of doing so if he gets off just one attack against the monk with his sword first (probably by readying an action to attack the monk when he comes into range).

And further, he's much more of an asset to a team. If you face undead, he can attack them without worrying about level draining effects. If you are fighting creatures like elementals, he won't get burned, or covered in acid by trying to grapple them. If you have a lot of small foes to deal with, he can clear a room quickly with his great cleaving ability. If you want to pin a foe, he's pretty good at grappling. If you have to deal with a foe at range, he can pull out his bow and pepper them with arrows. If you are fighting things with DR, he has several of those bases covered. If you need a damage sponge to prevent the wizard from getting killed, he can do that too. Really the only thing the "grappling monk" has over him is speed, and he can make up for that with far superior ranged attacks.

The monk is just not very viable as a foe for a pretty standard properly equipped fighter of equal level. He's just too easy to hammer into the ground.

(Edit: changed a little bit of equipment to have a couple "special materials" items)

 

[KarinsDad]

I agree.... a Fighter who gave up armor and weapons and went with a grapple build could be +3 Grapple better but would only do d4+9 istead of Monk's d10+9.... of couse a barbarian build would be better yet with Rage adding to Str for Grapple..... the point is that the monk is capable of specializing to be competative in many various fields.... the monk also can move into grapple allot faster than the fighter... but the fighter get more other feats.... and the Monk gets all saves are good....

specializing allows a class to excelle greatly... a fighter who tried to multi-task with weapons... armor... etc.... would have spent money there and not focused on the grapple build and could have been a good grappler but not nearly as good as a dedicated speciazed grapple character...

Monks have a great ability to specialize especially by high levels....

You must not be playing the same game as the rest of us.

Practically none of the Fighters in our games have ever been straight Fighters. Some had a level or so of Barbarian. Some had some spell casting classes in order to give them unique abilities (such as Enlarge or Bulls Strength).

I don't know of a player in our game who wants to be taken out with an Evard's Black Tentacles, so all of them have a way out of it (and any other grapple or entangle).

In our current game of 10th level characters, we have:

a Psion/Shadowmind who can Dimension Door
a Druid who can Wild Shape Large (i.e. +4 to grapples plus high bear Strength)
a Fighter/Sorcerer/Spell Sword who can Enlarge and do Fist of Stone (Str 18-26, +4 to grapples if Enlarged)
a Barbarian/Favored Soul/Bear Warrior who can do Bulls Strength and rage to shape change into a Bear (Str 27-31)

Most of these characters would be able to grapple fairly effectively against a same level Monk (and the Psion could just get away), even a grapple oriented Monk. And that's without any Strength enhancing or anti-grapple (e.g. Ring of Freedom of Movement) items (note: we also had a Warmage who died last week, but he would have Still Spelled the Monk into oblivion with Orb spells and/or Fire Shield, doing a lot more damage than the Monk could return).


A 16 Strength 10th level Monk with Improved Grapple and a Belt of Giant Strength +4 is +16 to his grapple and does D10+5 damage.

Druid as Brown Bear is +18 (she is only 8th level Druid due to being a Drow) and does D8+8.

Fighter/Sorcerer/Spell Sword is +12 to +20 depending and does D3+4 to D6+8.

Barbarian/Favored Soul/Bear Warrior is +11 to +19 depending and does D8+8 to D8+10.

Three same level PCs out of four here who would destroy that same level Monk if they really tried (since they can have better grapples and better grapple damage), who are not designed to be grapplers, and do not have any magical items which really help them in that regard.

They also have more hit points on average and would save against a DC 16 to 18 Stunning Fist the majority of the time (60% to 95% depending on which PC and the DC of the Monk) as well.

Straight Monks are fairly wimpy and your position that they make good grapplers is totally inaccurate.

 

[Thanee]

so if he spends the money on Magic weapons and armor instead ... yes he is a weaker grappler... but has better to hit and better AC...

And if he also buys the belt, he is a better grappler, has better to hit, better AC, better hit points and doesn't really give up anything, since Str is actually quite useful for a fighter in any case.

and what feat would let you deal with the 90 Speed Monk Spring attacking you from 45 ~ 50 feat away and then being 40 ~ 45 feet away after ???

Improved Grapple
Improved Trip
Rapid Shot
Spirited Charge
...

Bye
Thanee

 

[Dryfus]

Roleplaying restrictions do not balance mechanical advantages.

I totally( and respectfully) disagree. As a DM, if a player doesn't play his alignment and
religion as he should (IE he misses holy obsevances, he doesn't donate x% of his money/items, he takes his gods name in vain), then he LOSSES HIS CLERICAL ABILITIES UNTILL SUCH TIME AS HE STARTS/REPENTS OF HIS SINS!!!!!! so, roleplaying restrictions DO balance mechanical advantages, which is why I think most people DON'T play clerics, or paladins for that matter, because they don't want the hassle of playing in character.

 

[Dryfus]

you are talking about Lv20 Characters... this is nothing.... the Monk will have the same thing or simular... the cleric will not have better base attack and will have 2 fewer attacks per round.... he will not have better attack vs grapple when the monk negates his armor, shield bonueses... Monk will be faster and have better over all saves... as none of his are bad like the reflex of the cleric.

Ok you play the monk, I cast protection from law, good bye.

At 20th level a monk is cosidered extarplaneular(spelling), therefore affected(effected??) by "protection from" spells.

 

[Storm Raven]

Ok you play the monk, I cast protection from law, good bye.

At 20th level a monk is cosidered extarplaular(spelling), therefore affected(effected??) by "protection from" spells.

True, but in the monk's defense, he would get his spell resistance against the effect of the spell, which would have a decent chance of negating the effect. However, the real problem for a monk facing a 20th level cleric is simply this: the cleric has access to 9th level spells.

 

[Thanee]

Extraplanar is not enough for Protection from Law, as it only protects fully against summoned creatures (the small bonus it provides is rather irrelevant, especially with stacking).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Storm Raven]

By Lv 20 Monk passes up Fighter in AC and damage per round and has equal base attack.

Huh? How do you get that he has equal BAB? The monk's BAB is only +15, the fighter's is +20. As for damage, sure the monk gets 2d10 base (2-20, 11 average), but by then a fair number of fighters will have Greater Weapon Specialization, the example greatsword wielder I put forward, by 20th level, would have base damage with his chosen weapon of 2d6+4 (6-16, 11 average), not counting strength bonuses and magical enhancements. The fighter gets more bang for his Strength too, since he will often be getting his bonus x1.5 to damage, wheras the unarmed monk doesn't. The fighter is probably going to have a higher AC than your example monk too.

By Lv 20 Monk has ~20 less HP than fighter but heals self 40 HP / Day

By level 20, your example monk has, on average 90 hit points. The example fighter has, on average 170 hit points. That's a little more than "~20 less". You could add som Constitution enhancing items to the monk, but the fighter could too, so that's a wash.

by Lv 20 Monk has crazy Speed and better saves.

Yes, he does. But that's not very valuable, given that 20th level characters often have access to lots of items to enhance speed, making the fighter able to move about better as well. And being fast doesn't really help the monk fight, it helps him avoid fighting. Given the monk's low AC and mediocre hit points, he needs to avoid fighting.

Spring Attack is ment to complicate what the proper choice would be ... you ready for the spring Monk hits you with shirikin .... Plus this is still in the mid levels where I have already said fighters have an edge.

Actually, going back to the 10th level matchup we've set out, what the fighter probably does is pull out his javelins and make you a pincusion - 3d6+18 damage (28.5 average) in all probability (his first two attacks have a 95% chance of hitting you, his third has an 85% chance). If you dance around some more, he'll pull out his bow the next round and pepper you some more for 3d8+12 damage (25.5 average, once again, the first two hit 95% of the time, the last 85%). In two short rounds, the fighter has a good chance at killing off your example monk with limited danger to himself, and using his tertiary combat mode.

Of course, if he does ready an action, and you pull out your shuriken, you are really not going to scare him. In your example, you are 45 feet away. The shuriken has a range increment of 10 feet, meaning you have a -8 range penalty to your attacks to begin with. You can flurry with shuriken, but due to your lousy Dex score, your attack is only +8/+8/+2, reduce it by the -8 range penalty, and you need a natural 20 to hit the fighter even if you use masterwork shuriken. You deal 1d2 + Strength bonus damage in the unlikely event that you hit (you have a 5% chance of hitting with any of these attacks). The next round the fighter just goes ahead and charges; and at +19 to hit (while charging) he can afford to Power Attack for 6 points without affecting his attack roll at all: is your monk prepared for a 95% probability of taking 3d6+24 damage (34.5 average) before he grapples the fighter?

The monk will probably last two rounds against the fighter. Maybe three if he gets lucky.