Which Class or classes do you feel are unbalanced-too powerful?

[Zimbel]

Got it.

For the most part, I agree.


...and just to propose a real gaming example: Currently I play a Clr 19 in a group of 7 other players (1 DM, 6 PCs). The players share DMing duties, so when someone DMs, his/her player leaves the party (for a vacation, presumably ).

FACT: When I DM, the party is often in rough shape after just 1 encounter. When I play, we often squish challenges above our appropriate EL.

CONCLUSIONS: ???? Good question. Given what I've said above, can you really untangle all of the other potential reasons for the discrepancy from the class I play? I'd be happy to add other facts, should they become relevant.

Heh. sounds a lot like my last high-level campaign- 7 players, rotating DM bewteen 4, DM's PC did something else during their run. If either of the major spellcasters were out, there was a lot more impact than the DMs who played frontliners. Once we both were out.

However this tends to lend support to the conclusion that at least at LV 19, a cleric is stronger than (whatever their classes are).

Of course, for all I know, one of the other PCs is also a Cleric The reality is that you need a much larger sample size (or a way to improve control on your samples by a couple orders of power), which is annoying to get or create. Frankly at any level 15-18,20, I've only played one PC (in 3.0, a sorcerer) for LV 19,21-22, I've only DMed. From those, I can increase your sample size to 2 with minimal effort on my part: at LV 18, when the Cleric was out vs around LV 18 when the cleric was in (but a ranger/overpowerful prestige class was out) in an otherwise nearly identicle party, the party was far stronger with the cleric than with the ranger. Some of that was, admittedly the players; the Cleric build was fairly good, whereas the Ranger build was, even with the broken prestige class, not particuarly good. Simuarly, the Cleric's tactics were typically much better than the Ranger's. However, every time the Cleric's player DMed (or the Sorcerer's player DMed), the other party members would notice a large power difference.

Another possibility is that you're just a more challenging DM One thing with rotating DMs that one notices is a wide dispartity of abilities and issues. Really, a better sample would control for DM (which the above happened to).

 

[Merlion]

Thanks for bringing up specific examples of where you have seen Clerics be "overpowered". It helps focus this discussion. As Bevear1024 and Gambrion have amply demonstrated, most of the "overpowered" charge comes if

• You allow clerics to take 5 to 10 different domains at the same time , or
• you don't apply the game's rules correctly (stacking bonuses that shouldn't, etc), or
• only talk about >= 17th level clerics casting Miracle, or,
• allow the Persistant Metamagic feat (one of THE most broken add-on rules of the game).

I dont think it demonstrates that at all. Certainlly not "most" of the "charge". I think it demonstrates that the posters you mention have become extremely tired of how non-core material keeps adding more unbalanced options to the already unbalanced in core cleric.

Althgough your right that their posting those things in support of what they say about the Cleric isnt that great an idea, because people then simply say what you said...its all because of unbalanced non core material or whatever.

But looking at core its not to hard to see the problems of the Cleric. They simply get too much, and have to few real meaningful weaknesses.

And there is the issue also of how even within core, Clerics have at least 2 ways to gain limited access to "wizard type" spells...various Domains, and the Magic Domain granted ability.

On the other hand, how many ways, in Core, do wizards have of gaining access to Cleric spells, in the rules as written? None as near as I can tell.


Likewise, one poster brought up a house rule that make the use of area affect damage spells even more dangerous. But even without such a house rule, the chance of catching your allies (or yourself, or objects you dont want harmed) with those spells is a disadvantage they have, and a pretty good sized one. Along with all the other major disadvantages that direct damage, AOE and otherwise, faces especially at mid and high levels.

 

[Merlion]

Nope.

House rules are changing the Rules As Written to Rules As I Write Them.

For example, you've proposed changing the Cleric's saves and armor proficiencies. Those are fine changes for your game, I'm sure. But those are not the generally agreed upon rules of the game. They are not published by WotC as rule variants. You won't find the Sage writing about your rules in his web articles. People can't look them up in the SRD. The rules you propose are just that: Your rules. Another term for "your rules"? => House Rules. Simple enough.

Is this Forum about House Rules?
.

You still dont get it. I'm not talking about "the rules as I write them."

I am talking about possibilities/ideas/wishes for the future of the "rules as written"

I see it all the time in General Discussion and here in rules. Speculations about 4th edition. Discussions of solutions to obvious rules problems.

I really really dont see what the deal is, except i guess you just dont really want to discuss that aspect of this issue (and it is all the same issue-not something seperate as you seem to think). I dont see any point in making a seperate thread for a discussion thats already taking place.

Like I said I havent a clue why its such a big issue for you, but its your preregotive. I will continue to discuss possible solutions to the issues we're discussing and I hope others do likewise.

But please...and again I speak without any sort of malice...dont tell me you disagree with something I've said or suggested and then refuse to ellaborate as to why, its very vexing to me.

 

[Hypersmurf]

On the other hand, how many ways, in Core, do wizards have of gaining access to Cleric spells, in the rules as written? None as near as I can tell.

Limited Wish, for one. Imbue with Spell Ability is another, though not to any great effect.

The others are ways that work for anyone - UMD, spell storing, and the like.

-Hyp.

 

[Merlion]

This clerics discussion is interesting and all, but how about them druids. It's a freakin 20 level prestige class. A great spell list (competitive with the wizard for direct damage blasting with the lack of fireball being about the only advantage (flaming sphere, flame strike, fire seeds, firestorm, etc), healing (not quite as good as the cleric, but all the healing spells), and summoning (with early access to hipogriffs, dire wolves, and elementals)), spontaneous summoning, wild shape, an animal companion who is generally at least as effective as a similar level fighter (slows down a bit at high levels though unless he's buffed to the nines), wildshape, poison immunity, save bonuses, good skill points, and a good skill list. (Including spot, listen, spellcraft, and diplomacy). There's very little a druid can't do (except wear metal armor). And to top it all off, someone at WotC R&D must think druids are weak because the most certain way to pick the top tier spells (some would say broken) in any expansion is to look at what's on the druid list (the vigor spells, brambles, spikes, quill blast, brilliant aura, arc of lightning, etc).

....I just really dont see a whole lot wrong with the Druid. If people say the Cleric spell list is limited and not all that great, then the Druids is worse. Yea they have good damage...but direct damage generally isnt that great a shakes especially at mid and higher levels. They are good healers and buffers, good damage, very little utility, and a lot of their stuff in general is limited in what it can affect or where it can be used etc. For instance, they can teleport...but only through plants of like kind.

Wildshape is a nice ability, but its not the combat monster many seem to think it is. the Druid still has medium BAB...he looses the use of most or all of his magic items (especially in terms of core), the ACs of the forms they can assume are really not that great...the Druid could probably achieve much the same with a deccent dex and his armor proffs, and most if not all of his buffs would stack with that. You get the strength and all that, and it is a nice combat buff, but I dont really see how a WSed Druid is going to replace the frontline fighters. And they have to spend a feat to cast in Wildshape, unlike the Cleric who can cast in his full plate for free.


Now I agree...a great many WOTC expansions are filled with a great many overpowered spells and feats and what have you for all the divine classes...not just Druids (there are some perfectly ok spells for both as well too of course). I think theres a general bias toward the Divine classes at WOTC.


I do agree though that Druids probably do get more other stuff than a 9 level caster should, even one with such a limited spell list. They dont really need a d8 hit die, or good Fort saves (and neither does the Cleric). Also, more other casters should have access to spells like Freedom of Movement, Death Ward, Find the Path and Spell Resistance (in the case of the Cleric)

 

[Merlion]

Limited Wish, for one. Imbue with Spell Ability is another, though not to any great effect.

The others are ways that work for anyone - UMD, spell storing, and the like.

-Hyp.

Yea, they can trade a 7th level spell and an XP cost for a single casting of a single low to mid level Cleric spell. And UMD is a cross class skill based on an ability score that has little or no other use for a wizard (although it would for a Sorcerer).

I guess I should have been more specific. Wizards have no way to get constant, reliable access to Cleric spells...even a limited, constant reliable access. There are no core Wizard or Sorcerer class features, nor feats, that let them use spells from the Cleric list, even a single time per day, or that give them cart blanche ability to use scrolls and wands of cleric spells at will.

 

[gabrion]

Thanks for bringing up specific examples of where you have seen Clerics be "overpowered". It helps focus this discussion. As Bevear1024 and Gambrion have amply demonstrated, most of the "overpowered" charge comes if

• You allow clerics to take 5 to 10 different domains at the same time , or
• you don't apply the game's rules correctly (stacking bonuses that shouldn't, etc), or
• only talk about >= 17th level clerics casting Miracle, or,
• allow the Persistant Metamagic feat (one of THE most broken add-on rules of the game).

I haven't followed this discussion for a while, but I'm wondering which of my examples (other than persistent divine power) fall into any of these categories?

 

[Nail]

I haven't followed this discussion for a while, but I'm wondering which of my examples (other than persistent divine power) fall into any of these categories?

(laughs good naturedly) Wait, you want me to page back and find these examples? (With a dial-up connection?) Are you nuts? Forward, man....always forward!

 

[Nail]

You still dont get it. I'm not talking about "the rules as I write them."

I am talking about possibilities/ideas/wishes for the future of the "rules as written"

This is the first time you've mentioned/clarified this intent of yours. Why is it surprising, therefore, that I "dont get it"? My mind-reading powers are weak when used through the keyboard.

I really really dont see what the deal is, except i guess you just dont really want to discuss that aspect of this issue (and it is all the same issue-not something seperate as you seem to think).

......I realize this side issue is derailing you more than it should. A Zen-like detachment is in order. But I can't help being curious: What's unclear to you about this side-bar?

You propose Clerics should have d# instead of d8 for hp. I point out that's not relevant in a rules discussion, but would be great material for a House Rules discussion. Perhaps things would be different if I started a House Rule thread, and pointed you in that direction?

In any case, I'm glad there's no malice on either side of our discussion.

 

[Nail]

....I just really dont see a whole lot wrong with the Druid.

In our party, we have a Drd 16. The player is somewhat new to the game, and doesn't really get into the minutia like I do, even after playing the PC for a while. It's not surprising her PC isn't overpowered.

But when I play (rather than DM), I give her suggestions.....and suddenly her PC rocks the house. The change is dramatic. Usually all that's required is a list of useful spells and animal forms.

Given the ease of the transformation.............