Which Class or classes do you feel are unbalanced-Underpowered

[KarinsDad]

Wow Ian, I guess not only are we to bow to your amazing wisdom about clerics and monks, but we should play all characters in accordance with your radical All Bread No Bombs political beliefs.

There are a lot of folks like you in the real world who say, without much practical thought, that if only the USA would take its military budget and write a big check they could solve all the world's problems. The problem is that there are acutally evil poeple out there who will steal the "bread" without sufficient "bombs" to stop them from doing that. That is what happened in Somalia, for instance.

But in the real world, we only have evil humans that can only be so powerful. People cant become Superman if they kill enough folks, and there sure as he11 arent mighty dragons, archwizards, and nigh-invincible incarnations of evil such as powerful fiends. In dnd worlds, the churches have both bread folks and bomb folks. Some clerics are tasked with helping their communities, and some are tasked with making sure the bad guys dont come in and do nasty things to said communities. NPC clerics are usually bread folks, PC clerics are usually bomb folks. The world needs both.

I think Ian has a point though.

Many people play good PCs in DND and wouldn't know real good if it bit them in the butt.

It is not just the people playing Clerics.

I think most players should be forced by their DMs to read the first chapter of the Book of Exalted Deeds, just to get a clue.

 

[Storm Raven]

Quite possibly. But as his posts in both threads demonstrates, his opinions differ markedly from the norm. Does that really prove anything?

All his posts in this thread and the "overpowered" thread have shown me is that he is bad at math and doesn't think through the tactics of combat.

 

[Storm Raven]

I am not saying all Good gods and religions tell people they should be poor and turn the other cheek... What I am saying is what Good person doesn't heal the sick when they have the power from their Good God.... What Good Person lets that sick person die becuase he can't aford your fees??? What Good Person gathers great wealth and gives nothing to charity or those less fortunate??? Also What high level Cleric with more power from his God why is this Person who is closer to his God not acting more as a general and directing the Church???

This would be releveant if D&D clerics were members of an idealized version of the Catholic Church. They aren't. Many "good" D&D religions are quite martial in nature, check the Forgotten Realms, for example.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

None of the classes seem paticuarly weak to me (some do seem strong). It's just a fact of the game that spell casters are going to beat out fighter types at high levels in power.

 

[ForceUser]

I think most players should be forced by their DMs to read the first chapter of the Book of Exalted Deeds, just to get a clue.

Quoted for truth.

 

[morez]

bard b/c they suck as written.

well i just started a bard who's 2nd level atm. i plan him to be a bard 8 / fighter 2/ arcane archer 10 and i think this build could be rather strong but i am not sure.
maybe the bard class alone tends to be weak but how about class combinations...?
an 8. level bard only has 2 AB less than a fighter but alot of skills (which are important when it's becoming social but also skills like tumble) and some spells.
unfortunately there is no cleric in our party and therefor this bard is the only one who can cast cure wounds...

well i will see when getting higher levels if you are right

 

[Nail]

All his posts in this thread and the "overpowered" thread have shown me is .....

Not to put too fine a point on this or anything, but: Yup.

Back on topic for this thread: In some cases "underpowered" does have a related "roleplaying restrictions" component, either express or implied. I'm a firm believer in not having roleplaying balance an mechanical advantage...but I think the Game Designers would disagree (in part).

The druid is a prime example. Players in games I have played in usually play-up the druid's nature aspect...and therefore play-down some of the druid class potentially over-the-top abilities.

Thoughts?

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Bards, for pretty much a summation of the reasons above.

Monks as well.

I also voted for rogues. It's not that they're useless, it's just that they're fairly easily shut down. There are a few patches from a lot of different sources (low-level spells, some feats), but they're few and far between, and any solution pretty much requires multiclassing. That's annoying.

Brad

 

[IamIan]

This would be releveant if D&D clerics were members of an idealized version of the Catholic Church. They aren't. Many "good" D&D religions are quite martial in nature, check the Forgotten Realms, for example.

this is true.... but even warrior faiths... Go to Heaven for smiting Evil and being a great warrior in battle types .... Even these faiths Those who worshiped God's of War etc... ... have religious rites and beleifs .... practices and policies... and holy men who are expected to perform sertain roles ... even if that same holy man was one of the fighters in the raid on the evil sinners... Bless the kight before the crusade... Give a Blessing before a Battle... Thanks the God for the Victory... Burry the Dead... Say words at meals.... are all relgions the same... of course not... I wouldn't expect Clerics to all be Christian Clerics heck some faiths believe in blood sacrifices... not just evil ones too... I would Expect them to show thier faith... I don't care what the holy days are if any ... I don't care what the prayers are if any ... I don't care what the Songs are if any ... I don't care what these things are specificly ... but for there to be a religion of any kind there have to be some of these "things"... And I NEVER see Cleric players EVER play any of these things.

Yes... The people not playing thier alignment happens often.... but that is true for all classes as stated... But some classes that have alignment restrictions ... like LG Paladins mean not playing in that Alignment is changing the setup of the class itself.

All his posts in this thread and the "overpowered" thread have shown me is that he is bad at math and doesn't think through the tactics of combat.

yes... that must be it... becuase I don't agree ... Something MUST be Wrong with something I am doing... I don't think it through.. I have bad math skills ... I haven't read the Book ... I don't know how to play ... yeagh ... that MUST be it... couldn't possibly be that I have a different opinion ... or maybe that I value sertain things differently??? ... of course not that is crazy talk... everyone values things the same... and the only opinions are the right ones and the wrong ones??? .... you are entitled to think so all you want....

I just Disagree... Put me and what I know down all you like if it makes you feal any better

 

[Nonlethal Force]

i think this build could be rather strong but i am not sure.
maybe the bard class alone tends to be weak but how about class combinations...?

This is a bit off topic and I admit it (although it does pertain to bards being weak so not really off topic).

The bard is weak if looked at purely on a combat analysis. The bard isn't great at buffing themselves like the cleric is ... and they can't at least hope to make up for their slowere BAB progression with more attacks like the monk tries (and often fails, but that is another argument many of the posters are already handling well enough! ).

But the bard isn't meant to shine on the battlefield. Really, they aren't. The bard is meant to shine in the taverns (making friends, arranging sponsors for quests, getting information, gaining followers and supporters) and they are meant to make others shine on the battlefield. To play a straight up bard may take a very selfless player ... moreso than any other class. To play a straight up bard means to be willing to want to make other people look good, knowing that you aren't going to get the credit for it in the long run. As proof of this point, just look at the votes it gets here.

Most people think the bard is weak because they want the bard to stand alone. And it is not designed to stand alone - or else .. you know what ... it is weaker. But that is precisely why the PHB says:

For a typical group of four adventurers, the bard is perhaps the most useful fifth character to consider adding and he can make a great team leader.

A 4 person party may be better off without a bard to make sure all the basics are covered (melee, stealth, magic offense, healing/buff). But once the 4 basics are covered, the bard is a great - no - perfect addition because the bard makes everyone else better at what they do. A truly selfless character makes the best bard. Bards that are about themselves are going to eaten alive.

...

...

Having said that, what you say about multiclassing may be true. But multiclassing a bard (not including PrCs for the moment) always makes me wonder if multiclassing with another character wound't be better. Multiclassing for the spells would be better done with a full arcane (or divine) caster. Multiclassing for the skills would be better done with a rogue. Multiclassing for the offense .. is .. well ... just not really making sense in my opinion.

Bards are best played straight up (A 20th level bard can do amazing things off the battlefield and on the battlefield can do amazingly wonderful things to his companions) OR taking PrCs that directly enhance their bardic talents. Most of the examples from the Complete Adventurer work as examples that help the bard in some aspect or another.

And, of course, this is just my opinion. If you would like an example of a truly non-combat bard designed to do nothing other than make sure her allies are as good as it gets, look at Sye Dillinger in my sig. She's an interesting concept - one that I honestly don't know if she'll work or not, but I am trying her out. "Combat" weak .. but "combat support" good.

Just my opinion. Good luck with your bard build, morez.