Which feats are "feat tax"?

[Crazy Jerome]

Anything else bothering you from a power-balance or ease of use standpoint? You might consider a solution that addresses everything at once. I find that if there are only one or two things I want to house rule, then better to do them directly. But if there are several, possibly inter-related things, better to make one house rule that deals with the whole problem at once. My players have a limited tolerance for house rules. (They don't mind the balance issues. They simply don't want to absorb too much in the way of rules changes.)

For example, I dislike the expertise feats (though the saving throw ones are alright) as an inelegant fix, and because I don't much care for the characters getting overly locked into one type of equipment. I also don't much care for the clunkiness of the daily magic item use limit. So in my current game, I decided to ban all the expertise feats and remove the daily magic item use limit. If party synergy isn't enough to handle any issues arising from falling behind the math, then I can be more generous with magic. I don't need anything special done in the online tool, and the players can more easily understand their magic item options. Win-win.

 

[Samir]

I also don't much care for the clunkiness of the daily magic item use limit. So in my current game, I decided to ban all the expertise feats and remove the daily magic item use limit.

Just as a side note, I believe the daily magic item limit was abolished in the Rules Compendium.

 

[DracoSuave]

Just for the record, unless you've seen or done a level-by-level analysis of what the attack bonuses vs expected defenses are for each level, you've not got any basis whatsoever to 'even out the math.'

I get that there's an intention to 'make the attack vs defense 50/50' but the math doesn't allow that. Examination shows that players are actually ahead of the curve by 15% on average. In the absence of these feats, players actually are able to reach that 50% probability to hit that proponents of the feats-as-free actually are trying to accomplish. The feats themselves are for pulling ahead of the curve.

Moreover, the idea that feats shouldn't increase player abilities like that is stupid; that's the entire point behind feats. It's up to the player to decide if they want to go ahead of the curve on attacks (some players prefer that style) or explore other options in roleplay (No bonus to hit will help you in roleplaying situations, therefore feats like Linguist have a place).

Conclusion: If you think feats like Linguist are terrible, you're not involved enough in aspects of the play that don't involve d20 rolls to injure stuff. That's a campaign style choice, not a feat-quality choice.

 

[Herschel]

I'm about to ramp up my 4e game and I'd like to houserule players getting the "Feat tax" feats for free so they can use their feats to customize their characters instead of wasting them fixing math problems. At the same time, I don't want my "looking for players" post to have a massive list of feats or other options that'll just confuse everyone (especially since I've got new players). If it helps, they're starting at 2nd level.

So what feats do you give to your players?

There's no such thing as a "feat tax". The game/math works fine with-or without- any particular feat. Any feat you give away is free optimizing, not a fix.

My God that term should just die the ignorant death it deserves!

 

[Herschel]

I have been of the opinion that teamwork and bonuses from other players an fill the 'holes' in the numbers well enough.

This.

If your players have any sort of clue on how to play as a team there will be bonuses flying everywhere.

 

[Aulirophile]

Just for the record, unless you've seen or done a level-by-level analysis of what the attack bonuses vs expected defenses are for each level, you've not got any basis whatsoever to 'even out the math.'.

Whoops! Browser Settings Incompatible

Like that one, which says PCs fall behind by 4?

The math isn't hard. Monster defenses go up by 1 per level. That is +29 to defenses over level 1. Add up the boosts PCs get from level+items+stat, it is 25. Those are the only things that are considered to be automatic.

 

[Herschel]

But you can only try to argue that if the players aren't bright enough to actually play together. Charges, combat advantage, buffs, de-buffs, etc. are all over the place.

And don't forget the zones/status effects that "steal" monster turns.

And the higher the level you get the more effects are flying around.

That "math" in a vacuum is nigh pointless to anyone with any sense of tactics or cohesion.

 

[Aulirophile]

But you can only try to argue that if the players aren't bright enough to actually play together. Charges, combat advantage, buffs, de-buffs, etc. are all over the place.

And don't forget the zones/status effects that "steal" monster turns.

And the higher the level you get the more effects are flying around.

That "math" in a vacuum is nigh pointless to anyone with any sense of tactics or cohesion.

The developers disagree with you. /shrug.

And all of those things mentioned are just as available at the -4, they don't fix it in any way.

 

[Herschel]

The developers don't disagree, they adjusted to people who didn't have the desire (and/or tactical acumen) to play the game as designed while also adding options and features. When you have a bunch of "oblivious button mashers" playing the game too, then game balance breaks down as they miss out on the bonuses and features built in to the game. Their (designers) goal is to make the game as fun as possible for the widest audience possible. That means making a game fun for morons to masterminds. That requires a fair amount of flexibility and "fixes" for those who need them.

 

[Herschel]

I'll give an example of the "fixed" math in action. I have a Deva Avenger in a monthly game at 12th level now, 18 post-racial Wisdom boosted at opportunity, Fullblade and Expertise. According to the math argument, I should hit around 75%. I work around the defender looking for combat advantage when possible and also looking for goodies the cleric and wizard may toss around. Old, higher defenses are still used and encounters are built under normal guidelines.

Result: I've missed ONCE in FOUR MONTHS. That's it. And it's not like a have a lot of criticals either. I haven't rolled particularly well it's just that when seeking out every bonus and working to keep my double roll happening I don't miss.

Now, if I didn't have expertise, work as hard to keep my double roll going (ie: trying to "solo" stuff), sported an Executioners Axe, didn't look for combat advantage/attack bonuses, etc. my hit probablility would drop to the 75% neighborhood pretty quickly, maybe even lower, depending. As it stands, my character with the expertise feat and everything else is ridiculously accurate (by design). Is that a needed "fix"?