Which feats are "taxes"?

[Herschel]

I disagree with the Defense boosting feats.

If you're going to use the char-op board "opinion" of what is a feat tax (and I'm saying you not necessarily should), the defense boosting feats are nowhere near a feat tax status.

Most builds (at least 80-90% of them IME) never bother with those feats so I'm not sure why they would be considered equivalent to Expertise.

Because it appears a number of people only look at offense. I'll use my Genasi Swordmage as an example. Improved Swordmage Warding has been the difference numerous times in getting hit or not, which is very important especially on those occasions I'm the only melee character. Versatile Resistance in late heroic saved me approximately 90 HP of damage in a finale encounter, without it I'm down and the party most likely is a TPK as the squishy spellchuckers would then be exposed.

And I still hit as often as any character in the group. When I want to unload a daily, or even a regular power, I look for combat advantage and bonuses where I can, sure. I also use a +3 proficiency weapon. If you choose a +2, you may feel a bigger need to compensate for that missing +1, but it was one's choice to take the +2 weapon and there are always trade offs.

Part of me wonders if those screaming "feat tax" are really just poor tactical players who can't or won't look for the myriad of bonuses in the game play. There's a difference between being a min/maxer and a tactical player. For example, some groups eschew controllers because "they don't do enough damage" but controllers status effects can gain a group a lot of bonuses.

 

[Crothian]

That may be true.

It is

 

[Hellzon]

Part of me wonders if those screaming "feat tax"[...]

Take the rudeness elsewhere.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Weapon spec was a trap, not a tax.



What kind of an argument is this?

You don´t have to take it if you don´t feel underpowered compared to whatever you compare to... It is not that you get into jail for not taking this feat. And if anyone in the group shouts at you for not taking this feat, there is something inherently wrong with it and i feel sorry for you.

Older editions have worked with higher gaps between attacks of different players from level 1 on. And i am not speaking of classes that don´t have to attack to be effective. (Compare rogue/thief to fighter)

Weapon spec is no trap. It is a free +2 damage. Something that is considered broken beayond reason in 4e. It is a nice kicker for power attack. It is on the same effectiveness as weapon focus with a 2 handed weapon when you have power attack at your arsenal. for a 1 handed weapon it is on par with greater weapon focus.

 

[Nifft]

You don´t have to take it if you don´t feel underpowered compared to whatever you compare to... It is not that you get into jail for not taking this feat.

IMHO the trap was taking levels 3 and 4 of Fighter, not the feat itself.

If you qualified for Weapon Spec via Warblade, I don't think anyone would laugh at you behind your back for taking it.

Cheers, -- N

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Ok, yes of course, levels 3 and 4 of fighter only giving weap spec can be considered a trap. Level 1 and 2 are much more profitable.

But noone ever laughed at anyone behind the back about a character. They mabe mocked about it directly, but never because someone thinks he has taken an underpowered route. As i said in a different post, i feel sorry for anyone playing in such a group and wish him more luck in chosing his friends for the future.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

So, if I'm understanding correctly, there is some disagreement on whether the defense feats counts as taxes, correct?

Okay Nik, here's the lowdown. Out of those who believe in feat taxes:

100% believe Expertise is a tax,
25%-75% believe NAD boosters are taxes, and
5%-15% believe Armor Spec is a tax.

 

[Nifft]

But noone ever laughed at anyone behind the back about a character. They mabe mocked about it directly, but never because someone thinks he has taken an underpowered route.

thog mock to face

[sblock]

[/sblock]

cheer, -- n

 

[Nifft]

25%-75% believe FRW boosters are taxes

I'm of the opinion only Paragon Defenses and Epic Defenses are tax-like. The specific defense booster feats seem okay, even the +4 ones at Epic level.

Cheers, -- N

 

[roguerouge]

and if I choose diffrent feats then YOU want, you might get mad at me???

so does everyone run all feats/powers/skills by you for approval?

Since you asked, no. There's a difference between what I said (deliberate gimping of a character by ignoring obvious must-have feats in core rulebooks) and what your summary of what I said (everyone must run his feats by roguerouge). In the former, there's a great deal of freedom of choice, within the courtesy of not getting my character killed because of your choices. In the latter case, which you evidently viscerally disapprove of, you at least have a group making conscious decisions to support one another and build a cohesive unit.

I'll take courtesy or DM house rule vs. feat taxes or group decision-making over the self-involved gimping of characters. Any of those three results are preferable to players who don't pull their weight. I'm not talking about optimized characters here: I'm talking about extremely basic mastery of the rules.