Which Is The Stronger Character Class - Sorcerer or Wizard?

[Nightfall]

So is cheese like ultra player power heavy then?

 

[Li Shenron]

In 3.0 they were balanced against each other. Slightly better the Sorcerer at level 1-2, slightly better the Wizard at levels 3-5, then basically equal.

In 3.5 the Wizard is better, especially once you start using supplements.

 

[Nightfall]

What about Cheese?

 

[Li Shenron]

This is one point I always see brought up. But how much time does it take to scribe all those scrolls? Ignore the money and xp, though for any spell where you want them to be equal in power to your memorized ones, the hit is heavy, especially in mid-high level games. Sure a scroll of mage armor made at first level is probably enough for most cases, a magic missle sure isn't.

Plus the obviouus point the wizard also has to choose what spell to scribe in the first place.

Factor in the actions in combat. Getting a scroll out of storage is not a free action in core, though I remember some way to do it in some book or another. A move action that draws AoOs is not cool in combat, especially if you have to do it several times.

Wizards really shine if the DM abhndwaves a lot of the annoying, time consuming aspects of their spellcasting, which is a major limiting factor on them. Between learning a spell (a day) scribing it (another day) Making a few scrolls of it (at least a day, depending on how your Dm reads the scroll creation rules) you have been sitting around a whole lot. Ifthe rest of the party and DM allow you too, then a big drawback ahs been negated.

If you play a restless game where there is no downtime, item creation is indeed not a good choice for anyone.

But you just don't have to play such a game, you can choose.

That said, Scribe Scroll is *excellent* for spells that can save your day once in a while, but is not so useful for combat spells. Teleportation spells to escape a dangerous situation, an extra Dispel-type spell to remove some bad curse, special healing spells (Clerics) to remove a not-so-frequent conditions, and things like Knock or Comprehend Languages are great in scroll form, because they are spells that you normally don't want to devote a slot every single day (since you need them only once in a while), but when you need them you really wish you had prepared them.

Frankly I don't understand why in the books it was suggested things like using Scribe Scroll for an extra Magic Missile, in case you run out of spells. It's not completely wrong, but IMXP it's not remotely the best use of scribing.

 

[Li Shenron]

Also I want to point out that "easier to play" is NOT a balacing factor!

 

[Wraith-Hunter]

This is one point I always see brought up. But how much time does it take to scribe all those scrolls? Ignore the money and xp, though for any spell where you want them to be equal in power to your memorized ones, the hit is heavy, especially in mid-high level games. Sure a scroll of mage armor made at first level is probably enough for most cases, a magic missle sure isn't.

Plus the obviouus point the wizard also has to choose what spell to scribe in the first place.

Factor in the actions in combat. Getting a scroll out of storage is not a free action in core, though I remember some way to do it in some book or another. A move action that draws AoOs is not cool in combat, especially if you have to do it several times.

Wizards really shine if the DM abhndwaves a lot of the annoying, time consuming aspects of their spellcasting, which is a major limiting factor on them. Between learning a spell (a day) scribing it (another day) Making a few scrolls of it (at least a day, depending on how your Dm reads the scroll creation rules) you have been sitting around a whole lot. Ifthe rest of the party and DM allow you too, then a big drawback ahs been negated.

This is definitly a good point and much depends on your game, like everything else. That is a given. In some games it is not even worth it to take item creation feats, as the chars have no time.

But the argument remains. Wizards have options available: scribe scroll, bonus feats for other craft feats like wands, that sorcerors miss out on. If chosen wisely (spell and @ casting level) some well chosen spells on scrolls can give the wizard alot of flexability. You also have bonus feats and it would be easier to take the quick draw feat as you have more feats to play with. There are scroll cases bandoliers and magic items that help with the organization of scrolls/extra equipment.

I think when it comes down to it when 3.x was still new the impression was that spont. casting was WAY more powerfull than prepared casting, and to 'balance' this the sorcerors were made weaker than the wizard to compensate. Spont casting is great don't get me wrong, but it is not THAT great. Not so good that it justifies not getting anything besides spells for class abilities.

Also when was the last time that WotC knew anything about optimizing a character at ALL? A poorly played/optimized sorceror rocks compared to a poorly played/optimized/prepared wizard. The original push of the sorceror class seems like it was meant to be what the Warmage is NOW, but the game mechanics don't work for in that role as well. Heck WotC can't even figure out the game mechanics for sample characters. How many sample char in WotC books have feats or spells they can't use, or skills in non-class skills as class skills or vice versa, or come with equipment they can't use. Etc. Seems like they can't get the basics right.

Plus when the class was first made the design criteria is much different than it is now. All the new base classes have a different criteria for design than the original core classes did. I think if the sorceror was designed from scratch now, that it would be a different beast entirely.

From a Dm perspective I would want a class that was substantially different than the wizard.
1. Different skill list and more points. Make the list reflect what they could learn with all the free time they don't spend reading dusty old tomes.
2. Up the hit die to a d6. They are not nerds the d4 wizards hit die comes from spending all his time reading books being unatheltic etc. Sorcerors don't have to spend this time.
3. Create some class abilities to entice players to stay with the class for the whole time, so that there is a reason not to take a PrC.
4. Give them enshew materials for free and have a formula to convert expensive gp components to XP costs, to keep the flavor different, on spells with $$ material components.
5. Have sorc and wiz take a -2 penalty to identify spells cast by the diff classes. They do it different.

As a player I would like something more than what the core class offers. More and better skills as Int is generally not as important to a sorc as Con/Dex. More points and some party face class skills would be nice. Also I would like some class features to encourage me to stay in the class. Not all PrC's are interesting or fit with a concept I may have, or they might be really cool, but the feat or skill requirements make it really difficult to get into. Especially if the feat requirements are useless, and are only there as a price for admission. Sorc are feat starved as it is. Wasting feats really sucks. This favors wizards again as they have more feats to spare.

As a player and DM I don't have a problem with the delayed progression. I normally play wizards. I really want to love sorcerors though. I am playing one in a new game as I want to try something different and I don't want the hassle of having to guess what spells to prepare every day.

When it comes down to it the game is has changed since the sorc first came out. The wizard has had some power creap that puts it even farther ahead with suppliment books. And the design philosophy of classes has changed as well. With all this I think it makes the sorc weaker in comparision. I also don't think most people play them the way WotC originally intended them to be played. I think the Warmage is more like that. Whatever advantages spont casting has I think the balance factor is in the limited number of known spells NOT class features. It is not so powerfull as to give a reason to eliminate class features.

 

[Hussar]

I think where a sorcerer really wins out is with all or nothing spells. Fireball isn't all that great, but, Suggestion, where a single failed save means the fight is over, can be very, very powerful. Sure, the wizard (or specialist) could memorize the same spell multiple times, but, then, he's a weaker sorcerer. He's giving up his advantages.

Honestly I think they're pretty close so long as the player plays to strengths.

 

[Wraith-Hunter]

If you play a restless game where there is no downtime, item creation is indeed not a good choice for anyone.

But you just don't have to play such a game, you can choose.

That said, Scribe Scroll is *excellent* for spells that can save your day once in a while, but is not so useful for combat spells. Teleportation spells to escape a dangerous situation, an extra Dispel-type spell to remove some bad curse, special healing spells (Clerics) to remove a not-so-frequent conditions, and things like Knock or Comprehend Languages are great in scroll form, because they are spells that you normally don't want to devote a slot every single day (since you need them only once in a while), but when you need them you really wish you had prepared them.

Frankly I don't understand why in the books it was suggested things like using Scribe Scroll for an extra Magic Missile, in case you run out of spells. It's not completely wrong, but IMXP it's not remotely the best use of scribing.

Beacuse WotC doesn't know a thing about optimizing characters. Much of the play advice I read in the books is BAD advice. Most of the time they can't even get class featuers skills feats and equipment right on sample characters. Let alone play something optimized. I think a poorly optimized or played wizard is MUCH weaker than a similarly made and played sorceror. A well played wizard however leaves a sorceror in the dust.

A flip side to this is if you can just buy any scroll you want at a local scroll shop the sorceror gets MUCH better. But most DMs in my exerience don't play this way.

I did some arena playing on the WotC boards a couple years ago with a sorceror, and the ability to purchase scrolls of any core spell you wanted was a HUGE power boost. But that is not indicitive of a typical game.

 

[Wraith-Hunter]

Also I want to point out that "easier to play" is NOT a balacing factor!

+1 They are just easier to play that is all, but with the way WotC seems to not know a thing about optimization this IS a balancing factor if both classes are not played well, it makes the sorc a bit better if a wizard is not played well.

 

[Fishbone]

Outside of spells per day the wizard gets better everything. Higher level spells quicker, 5 more feats, a better casting stat, and even though it can't cast spontaneously it makes up for it by being far and away superior with metamagic and being more versatile to boot.
The worst sorcerer justification I've seen is that because they get nothing past level 1 its easier for them to prestige. Never mind the fact that because of the extra feat and skill points the wizard almost certainly will qualify faster and easier than a sorcerer, how is not having anything supposed to be GOOD?!?!?!?!
The Sorcerer should be able to choose something like a Heritage path to say where the magic comes from and get the benefits of that special tie to magic instead of a feat. There are feats with benefits like this. Throw these poor bastiches a bone already, WOTC!
To use a sports analogy...
Any class with 0-9 casting is most likely stronger than the average class, but arguing that the wizard and sorcerer are equal is like saying "Michael Jordan and Scotty Pippen were both equal basketball players."