Which system for a Star Wars game?

[Owen K.C. Stephens]

Owen K.C. Stephens, I am not worthy of you dropping by this thread…

Hey, we all roll our attacks one d20 at a time...

(Thanks by the way!)

My pleasure. Seriously. If I have spare time, I spend it talking to other gamers. I only got into this business because I was going to spend 40 hours a week writing game material. I might as well get paid for it.

Not long after I started working at WotC, Dave Gross came down and told me he had a bunch of cool art for Star Wars starships, and asked if I'd like to come up with names, backstories, and game stats for him. I said I'd be thrilled to. Then he told me what the pay rate was. I was too stunned to try to explain I just wanted to do it... money wasn't necessary.

SW Gamer #2, as I recall. The art was -really- cool.

I have a lot of D6 material and one of my players is a BIG D6 fan having most of the books. I must admit to being a big D20 fan. D&D is and has been my poison of choice since 1987, so D20 is comfortable for me and most of the group. I am leaning heavily towards True 20 right now, but I will wait and give the Saga rules a break.

Fair enough, and obviously -I- won't try to dissuade you. However, if you want to run the game any time soon you may want to go ahead and pick something now. Saga isn't due for a few months yet.

One question Owen and I know there is a non-disclosure agreement, etc. etc. Will other characters be balanced with the Jedi in the Saga edition or will they still be the the BEST choice in the game? (If you can answer that of course!)

Heh. That's the $64,000 question, and the one thing I can guarantee is that 48 hours after the book is published some people will say Jedi are overpowered, some people will say they're underpowered, and some will say they're just about right. -I- certainly think they're balanced, but I'm biased. Playtesting has gone well, but there's no way to avoid some play-style questions with that.

For example, I ended a 1st ed d20 SW game with a Wookiee soldier with a virbo-ax. With Power Attack, my huge Strength and a few other options, I could realistically damage an AT-AT. The Jedi couldn't come close. The Jedi player felt his class was underpowered, I felt it was perfect, since my character could keep up.

YMMV. We did our best.

Owen K.C. Stephens
d20 Triggerman

Need better cheap magic options?
Get Loot 4 Less II: Rods, Staves and Wands

 

[ValhallaGH]

For example, I ended a 1st ed d20 SW game with a Wookiee soldier with a virbo-ax. With Power Attack, my huge Strength and a few other options, I could realistically damage an AT-AT. The Jedi couldn't come close. The Jedi player felt his class was underpowered, I felt it was perfect, since my character could keep up.

Wookies with vibro-axes are scary.
I had one, in a playtest, that killed a Rancor in two attacks. Two! The previous playtest had a fifty-five round slug-fest (yes, 55 rounds, took about seventy minutes) which ended when the players convinced the rancor to bust out with them and rampage through the gangster's palace; which is good because that rancor was almost fully healed thanks to his Fast Healing trait.

 

[ValhallaGH]

This is a tangent. My apologies to the rest of the thread.

Proudly, I now own a copy of True 20. With some perusal, I can tell it's a viable option for SW as well ... sorta like an unleashed D20 style. I'm very curious about Valhalla's assertions on inherent balance as well, the ease of different levels in a party. I'm eager for elaboration on these while I read this system deeper.

The balance issue is something you'll have to experience for yourself. Suffice it to say that taking a look at the NPC Jedi I've statted and comparing them to equal level non-Jedi gives you a solid idea of how Jedi compare.

Playing at different levels is not something covered in the system, though it's implied by the damage system and the nigh epic abilities granted by Conviction. Because all characters are equally tough at all levels, the largest concern of low level play (i.e. the squishiness of PCs) is gone. Thus, you can include characters of many different levels without too much concern.
Additionally, most options are available to characters at first level. The advantage of high level characters is that they have more of those options, rather than access to more options (though they have a few of those too).

I watched a level 1 character take six crossbow bolts and eight sword slashes to the torso; he was messed up but functional and racked up twelve kills in that encounter, including the big bad.
I watched a level 1 follower (no conviction) go toe to toe with a troll and hold his ground until an ally could run up with a burning limb and put the troll down for good. It was touch and go, but he made it. If he'd had conviction then he would have been even more impressive.

Don't get me wrong, high level characters kick lots of butt. They do this by hitting frequently and being hit rarely. They also have many more abilities than low level characters. At a certain point the disparity in abilities between the various characters will become problematic, you don't want a level 1 to roll with level 20s, however within a range of three to eight levels (depending upon campaign) all characters will feel equally valuable despite the number differences on their character sheets.

And now I have finished my tangent. Thank you for your patience.

 

[Ranger REG]

Well, in fairness, D6 Star Wars was around for much longer than d20 Star Wars

So's the English Monarchy, but doesn't mean America should still be under British rule.

Granted, d6 Star Wars have been around for some time to established itself. But for my own experience, it sucks. I welcome the new change of pace, err system.

 

[Greg K]

I say go with True20.

To date, I haven't been impressed with either d6 or d20 version of Star Wars. I think d6 and standard d20 (class/level and hit points/wound/vitality points) are good systems for creating one's one settings or using orginal settings that don't try to recreate existing works . D6 used way too many dice for my taste and results could get absurd. As for d20, I just haven't seen an implementation of d20 using standard d20 class/level and hit points (or wound/vitality) mechanics that does a good job, imo, for recreating characters from movie or books.

 

[Nebulous]

This might be slightly off-topic, but how can Jedis NOT be overpowered when compared to other characters, no matter what the system? In the movies, they kicked everybody's asses all the time, and defied the laws of physics and reality. Even moderately trying to emulate the movies in a game is going to create a schism between the "normals" and the force-users.

And i didn't think that d20 was horribly overpowered, but i've never played the d6 to compare it.

 

[Owen K.C. Stephens]

This might be slightly off-topic, but how can Jedis NOT be overpowered when compared to other characters, no matter what the system? In the movies, they kicked everybody's asses all the time

Except, of course, when a whole bunch were killed by mooks. The battle droids killed many during the opening battle of the Clone Wars. Clone Troopers killed numerous Jedi after Order 66. Jango Fett fought Obi-Wan to a standstill. General Grievous killed a bunch of Jedi when THEY outnumbered HIM.

Of course many (though not all) of those battles were either cases of massive outnumbering forces, suprrise, or fights with legendary characters. But the point is, there's no reason to beleive an 8th level soldier isn't just as useful as an 8th level jedi, because the characters on the screen don't have floating level markers above them. Obi-Wan was a great duelist, but a poodu fighter pilot. Why didn't he take more skill in starfighter combat? Because he wanted more Jedi related powers. Han Solo, on the other hand, can fly like no one's business, fast-talk his way in and out of trouble without the Jedi Mind Trick, and seduce a princess.

Balance doesn't mean everything a Jedi can do everyone else can too. Balance means there are multiple ways to be effective, and Jedi are best at some, but other characters have their own advantages and areas of strength as well.

Owen K.C. Stephens
d20 Triggerman

Need better cheap magic options?
Get Loot 4 Less II: Rods, Staves and Wands

 

[Vigilance]

^^^ Well put!

For my .02, I'd say d20 with True 20 a strong runner up.

Star Wars is a fantasy genre, so d20 is in its element.

Chuck

 

[snikle]

One of the guys over on our forum has done up his own version of uber-lite SW, based off some ideas found in microlite20 and simple20 (he called it "Ridiculously Lite Sci-Fi" so no lucasites would hunt him down and take his first born):


Ridiculously Lite Fantasy
http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dcmx33sc_0fdnnjg
Ridiculously Lite Heroes
http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dcmx33sc_1666q9j
Ridiculously Lite Sci-Fi
http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dcmx33sc_2fbdtws

 

[Diggus Rex]

Thank you Valhalla for your diversion of topic for elaboration. Having played Mutants and Masterminds I've seen the benefits of quasi-universal durability and the power of Hero/Conviction points compared to D20's Force/Action point. Yet, aside from enhanced character customization, I see no decisive benefit from True 20 over the RCR.

Plus, I dont see any of their designers coming to shed any light! (j/k)

Further, I disagree with the portrayl of Han "seducing" Leia. Game is like the Force, you have it strong or weak. Luke could lift an X-Wing, so let's not hate on Solo.

More on topic, although I thought Jedi were well balanced mechanically (kudos to Owen and his colleagues) in D20, I found it useful to accentuate RP factors as well. Subtlely hinted warnings of power abuse and secretly tallying the Darkside points myself as GM made my mostly power-gamer players consider their actions closely -- like a cleric or paladin might in D&D.

Players often chose to play non-Jedi just to feel free of the burden of power we see in the movie characters. dont let power creep become a problem.