While we're flipping things...

[Cadfan]

Lets fix spot and hide. These need to be rolled by the hider, not the spotter. Having the spotter roll them provides metagame knowledge that there's something out there to spot. Having Spot be a simple DC which a hider must beat changes little in terms of the math of the game or the chances of success for a hider, but eliminates some of the metagame information derived from rolling to Spot. Sure, the player can see that the DM is rolling dice, but that could mean a lot of things. Its not quite as bad.


Or in the immortal words of Belkar, "I think I just failed a spot check."

 

[Cadfan]

Uh, crap. I meant for this to be in the 4E forum... mods?

 

[blargney the second]

That's one 3e feature that's always bugged me. It'd be nice to reduce metagame temptations.

 

[RangerWickett]

I fully agree. I would love for Notice/Perception/Spot to just be a statistic on your character sheet. Maybe you have your ranks in Perception, which you use to search for things or attempt to eavesdrop or to locate someone who you know is nearby, but you also have your Awareness score, which is 10 + your Perception modifier. In effect, you normally take 10 on spotting.

I mean, it's kinda funny when the 8 Wisdom fighter sees someone that the 14 Wisdom max-spotting elf ranger misses, but it's not funny in a way that makes me like the game more. Static spotting is better.

 

[Jakar]

I have thought of getting around this by making the players roll up a lot of d20s before they start the game and using them for checks that they may make in this situation.

The only problem I see with it is that we use action points so doing it this way may disadvantage them by not allowing them to use their action points iffn they want to.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Lets fix spot and hide. These need to be rolled by the hider, not the spotter. Having the spotter roll them provides metagame knowledge that there's something out there to spot. Having Spot be a simple DC which a hider must beat changes little in terms of the math of the game or the chances of success for a hider, but eliminates some of the metagame information derived from rolling to Spot. Sure, the player can see that the DM is rolling dice, but that could mean a lot of things. Its not quite as bad.


Or in the immortal words of Belkar, "I think I just failed a spot check."

How is this any different than the DM just rolling for the PCs? Oh, never mind, my brain just kicked in. With all players having some form of perception score, a DM can just note the best one in the party, have the opponents roll against that as a DC, with modifiers as needed. Single roll instead of multiple spot/listen rolls opposed by hide/move silent rolls - much more streamlined.

If nobody is trying to be sneaky, group with the highest perception score becomes aware of the other first and gets a certain amount of time to prepare or act depending upon the difference in scores (not that they would know how long that is).

 

[Felnar]

when i DM i pre-roll a bunch of d20's and record the results in a list
then, when i need a d20, but dont want the players to know i'm rolling, i read one off the pad and cross it out

our other DM randomly rolls dice behind the screen basically all the time, this way seeing him roll doesnt mean anythings happening

note: we both roll all spot/listen checks for the players, and keep a list of all characters spot/listen modifiers behind the screen as well

 

[Hairfoot]

These need to be rolled by the hider, not the spotter. Having the spotter roll them provides metagame knowledge that there's something out there to spot. Having Spot be a simple DC which a hider must beat changes little in terms of the math of the game or the chances of success for a hider

That's how it works in C&C.

 

[marune]

The real solution is a conflit resolution system, where failure != "nothing happen". Sadly D&D 4E won't have it.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

I fully agree. I would love for Notice/Perception/Spot to just be a statistic on your character sheet. Maybe you have your ranks in Perception, which you use to search for things or attempt to eavesdrop or to locate someone who you know is nearby, but you also have your Awareness score, which is 10 + your Perception modifier. In effect, you normally take 10 on spotting.

I mean, it's kinda funny when the 8 Wisdom fighter sees someone that the 14 Wisdom max-spotting elf ranger misses, but it's not funny in a way that makes me like the game more. Static spotting is better.

This is the way I always play. It is superior.